Legal deer cartridge or not?

[Hank in Indiana]

Hi, I'm new to this board so please be patient. I want to rifle deer hunt with my new wildcat cartridge. It is a 45-70 case that has been shortened to 1.625" with a 45 cal bullet. It is capable of being shot from a pistol, or rifle in 45-70 caliber. It complies to all the criteria defined by statute for hunting deer with a marlin 1895 rifle. The case capacity is 50 grains of black powder I've been calling it a 45-50. I cannot find any element of any statute that would render my cartridge illegal. Any opinions?

 

[melensdad]

Sounds LEGAL to me.

 

[Mgderf]

Hi, I'm new to this board so please be patient. I want to rifle deer hunt with my new wildcat cartridge. It is a 45-70 case that has been shortened to 1.625" with a 45 cal bullet. It is capable of being shot from a pistol, or rifle in 45-70 caliber. It complies to all the criteria defined by statute for hunting deer with a marlin 1895 rifle. The case capacity is 50 grains of black powder I've been calling it a 45-50. I cannot find any element of any statute that would render my cartridge illegal. Any opinions?

Sounds like you're good to go.
Happy Hunting!
Please post pics of your success!

 

[redneckmedic]

Could you post you load data for this?

 

[IndyGunworks]

Could you post you load data for this?

matt with those older cartridges the load data is in the cartridge description... 45-70 gvmt is a 45 cal projectile under 70 grains of black powder... the OP said he has been using 50 grains of BP.... the tolerances and pressures are less with these cartridges so as long as you stick within the norm for bullet weights you shouldnt run into pressure problems...

OP i am near positive that this is legal in indiana although shortening up the casing that much you might run into accuracy issues since it will be such a long jump to the lands... however you might still get accuracy, until youpost otherwise we wont know...

to be 100 percent sure, pm fireball168 or post in his forums here as he is a site sponser and his company specialized in indiana legal wildcat cartridges.

 

[Hank in Indiana]

The cartridge shoots great. I've had 1min. groups but usually 2-3 min. I shot 5 through the chrony. They averaged 1450 with a 14 fps deviation. With a 300 g. JHP

 

[redneckmedic]

The cartridge shoots great. I've had 1min. groups but usually 2-3 min. I shot 5 through the chrony. They averaged 1450 with a 14 fps deviation.

That is actually what I was looking for...Thx, bad question I suppose.

 

[IndyGunworks]

The cartridge shoots great. I've had 1min. groups but usually 2-3 min. I shot 5 through the chrony. They averaged 1450 with a 14 fps deviation. With a 300 g. JHP

thats some pretty impressive stats..... sounds like a pretty good cartridge. and blackpowder none the less

 

[fireball168]

Several folks I know are doing exactly what you are doing with 45-70, 450 Marlin, 50-70, etc.

Be careful to ensure you've got adequate neck to chamber clearance - the brass gets thicker the farther back you cut it.

 

[Hank in Indiana]

First off, I'm not loading with black powder. I needed to name the cartridge so there would be no confusion with my 45-70 loads. In early times cartridges were named by caliber then case capacity in black powder. This is the method I used.
Second, The case walls have not thickened at the point of the cutoff. I have to neck size with a 45 acp die to get a tight bullet fit. I started this project about a year and a half ago with a 1881marlin in 40-60 caliber. I had some split cases and gave it a try. It worked so well that I tried some 45-70 cased in my 1873 trapdoor. My best recorded group came with this cartridge. Because of the limited cup pressures of the trapdoor I bought a 1895 Marlin. The cartridge wooks well for the 2 weeks out of the year that I need it. My problem is that some have questioned the legality of the cartridge. I was looking for other opinions. The 70 has been milled out of the head stamp so that cartridge face shows the head stamp of 45 govt.

 

[fireball168]

The case walls have not thickened at the point of the cutoff.

Measure the neck wall thickness on a new case, then measure the neck wall thickness after lopping .480" off.

It is irresponsible not to mention the potential for higher pressures, even dangerously higher pressures, for those who may decide to try it.

Your experience is apparently different.

My problem is that some have questioned the legality of the cartridge. I was looking for other opinions.

Provided your brass is 1.625" or less - the CARTRIDGE is legal, regardless of the caliber stamping/engraving on the barrel.

If you still are worried - carry a 4" dial caliper with you.

All of the BFG T/C barrels have maximum case length marked on the barrel to prevent any confusion. That's always an option for you as well.

 

[Redskinsfan]

rifle question

Hank,

Do you shoot this shortened case in a standard .45-70 chambered rifle?

Terry

 

[Hank in Indiana]

Yes, I shoot it in a 45-70. My trapdoor requires a lighter load than my Marlin because of the presures. I'm not suggesting that anyone try this cartridge. I was trying to get some input on the legal aspect. The law is short and sweet. The only ambiguous verbage is the term "Pistol Cartridge" I found no legal definition. The presumption is that it be a cartridge capable of being fired in a pistol. This one is. I've been reloading for 40 years this is not my first rodeo. I've never had a situation, but that doesn't mean that I will not have one in the next 40 years. If your asking me if you should try this, the answer is no.

 

[redneckmedic]

Here is the letter of the law verbatim

So I think you are good... Might want to bring your calipers and a exta 45 bullet with you to the stand with a FACT sheet on your load date to prove your case though.

http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/files/fw-Deer_Hunting_Equipment.pdf

Shotguns must be 10, 12, 16, or 20-gauge or .410 bore loaded with slugs or saboted bullets.
Rifled slug barrels are permitted.
Combination rifle-shotguns are not allowed.
Handguns
Handguns, other than muzzleloading, must have a barrel at least 4 inches long and must fire a bullet of .243-inch diameter or larger. The handgun cartridge case, without the bullet, must be at least 1.16 inches long.

Full metal-jacketed bullets are not permitted.
Handguns are not permitted on any military areas.
Some types of handgun cartridges legal for deer hunting include:
.357 Magnum
.41 Magnum
.44 Magnum
.44 Special
.45 Colt
.45 Long Colt
.45 Winchester Magnum
.35 Remington
.357 Herrett.
Some illegal handgun cartridges for deer hunting are 38 Special, 38 Smith and Wesson, 38 Colt New Police, 38/200, 38 Long Colt, 38 Super, 38 ACP, 38 Colt Auto, 45 ACP, 45 Automatic and 45 Auto Rim. All 25/20, 32/20 and 30 carbine ammunition is prohibited also.
Rifles with pistol cartridges
Rifles must fire a cartridge with a bullet of .357-inch diameter or larger; have a minimum case length of 1.16 inches; and have a maximum case length of 1.625 inches.
These rifle cartridges can be used only during the deer firearms season.
Some cartridges that are legal include the following:
.357 Magnum
.38-40 Winchester
.41 Magnum
.41 Special
.44 Magnum
.44 Special
.44-40 Winchester
.45 Colt
.454 Casull
.458 SOCOM
.480 Ruger
.475 Linebaugh
.50 Action Express
.500 S&W
Some illegal rifle cartridges for deer hunting are the .30-30 Winchester, .444 Marlin and .45-70 Govt.

 

[rockydog]

I have shot these through a H&R 45-70 single a few times (the guys a local shop have been loading these for quite some time) and smacked a diet coke can 3 times in a row at 100 yrds with open sights These guys are really into these this year. I've even thought about it.

 

[Hank in Indiana]

I really appreciate the responses. I have posted this idea on other websights and I received a lot of negative feedback. They think that I'm trying to bend or break the law rather than finding a better cartridge. I tried a Marlin 44 mag and had accuracy problems with heavy bullets. I assumed that the 1 in 38" barrel twist may have been a factor. I had Handi rifles in 357 and 50 S&W. Both shot so poorly that they were not fun to shoot so I sold both. This cartridge in a Marlin 1895 is really fun to shoot and deer hunting with it would certainly make my day. Thanks.

 

[singlesix]

I for would love to find a Wildcat 45-70 based round; I have a 45-70 sitting around gathering dust. Best of Luck.

 

[bigjoe1968]

I was talking to the frist sargeant of the dnr at the state bow turner and he told me that any straight walled ammo that in the lgeal size will be fine so call them thats what i would do.

 

[rockydog]

These guys are loading and selling the snot out of them. They had three people working on them last Friday. They are only open Thur-Fri-and Sat
Crystalbrook enterprises 6706 N 500 E, Syracuse - (574) 834-2744