"Light Trigger Pull Liability" from Massad Ayoob

[halfmileharry]

I had this same conversation roughly a month ago. I have a 1911 that's got a 2.78 lb trigger. A local range store I was in also had a couple of LEOs in there shooting as well. We talked and one of them asked to shoot my 1911. I let him and his other LEO buddy shoot it. They both commented about the trigger on it. (Thanks CM btw).
We then got discussing the ramifications of my light trigger as an EDC. They both were of the OPINION that s might htf over my trigger weight depending on the prosecutor in charge IF that need ever arose. I figure that's the way it goes anyway.
I do plan on hitting what I aim to. I practice extensively and spend an enormous amount of my monthly income on my hobby.
I'm not saying I won't soil the linens in a life or death situation but I do practice with what I carry.

 

[halfmileharry]

It depends on the type of litigation.

Criminal? I could care less. In self-defense you already admit you did it on purpose, you just have to have a real good reason.

Civil? This is what the insurance company or reinsurance company brings in Mas for. Negligent? Accident? It depends on what happened.

I wouldn't go screwing with my carry guns. Leave it plain Jane, and leave all the Rambo crap off of it too (and all the stupid, dumbass Deathhead Nazi crap that is so frickin' popular now).

Now that's a Lawyer talking there. From his point of view....Don't make it no harder buddy...

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Off topic a bit here... but when you have a shoot that is deemed justified from the get go, do you typically just relinquish the fired gun or do you have to give up all firearms on your person?

Odd question I know. I am phasing into having a BUG on me instead of just in my GHB. Would the other firearms on or about my person be considered for processing?

I have more at home, but that would seem like a very long distance to travel unarmed after something like that happened.

I have never had it happen for a non-LEO. Not sure. The fired gun is evidence because it ties the guy who got shot to the scene. An unfired gun? I don't see it as evidence.

I asked around in the office and no one has had it occur. The consensus is as long as the bug is unfired it is likely to not be taken.

I also asked about taking the gun in justified shoot. It is butt covering. Proves you really shot the guy and aren't covering for a felon or the like. Keeps family of shot person from claiming conspiracy or sloppy investigating etc.

 

[PRasko]

Ok, someone help me here, as I must not be comprehending something correctly.

Are we talking light trigger pulls in ND situations?

If not, I'm failing to see how a light trigger pull can be deemed negligent, if the person admits he intentionally shot someone in self defense.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Ok, someone help me here, as I must not be comprehending something correctly.

Are we talking light trigger pulls in ND situations?

If not, I'm failing to see how a light trigger pull can be deemed negligent, if the person admits he intentionally shot someone in self defense.

There's two conversations.

1) A too light trigger can lead to an ND under stress. I think this is the least controversial of the statements.
2) Some boogyman prosecutor will try to hang you (ha, works well with your avatar) on an otherwise justified shoot because of gun modifications.

#2 is often repeated, but generally light on specifics.

 

[ModernGunner]

Like Ayoob or not, he's one of the most experienced and called-upon people in the country in the realm of justified / unjustified shootings.

Both the article and the thread are further reinforcement of the often-bashed claim I repeatedly state: Get at least some training from someone who has 'been there / done that'. Instructors can 'theorize' to their hearts content about what, they believe, MAY happen in a real gun fight scenario', but someone who has been through it can offer a unique perspective others simply cannot.

Up to the individual trainee, of course. After all, it's your butt on the line. If (god forbid) one IS involved in such a shooting AND ends up in court, you can bet your 'training' WILL be called into question. JMO, but best to make sure it's 'unquestionable' as much as possible.

 

[PRasko]

2) Some boogyman prosecutor will try to hang you (ha, works well with your avatar) on an otherwise justified shoot because of gun modifications.

#2 is often repeated, but generally light on specifics.

I have absolutely no idea how they can get you for gun modifications.

You modified your gun to make it easier to shoot someone, but you still intended to shoot someone in self defense if you needed to. What does it matter if I had a red dot, laser, and a 1.5lb trigger pull...

That gives me an unfair advantage over the guy that's trying to take my life?

That's the most asinine argument I've ever heard.

I'll have to ask some friends about this one.

 

[rhino]

My opinion:

For a 1911, stress and a finger on the trigger at the wrong time is going to be relatively unaffected by the actual force required to press the trigger. If your finger is moving due a sympathetic response or other involuntary movement, 6 lbs. isn't going to be any different than 2 lbs. The trigger only has to move a tiny distance before the gun will discharge. The saving grace of double action and other long trigger pulls isn't as much the force required to move it, but much more so the distance it must be moved before the sear releases the hammer.

 

[churchmouse]

I have absolutely no idea how they can get you for gun modifications.

You modified your gun to make it easier to shoot someone, but you still intended to shoot someone in self defense if you needed to. What does it matter if I had a red dot, laser, and a 1.5lb trigger pull...

That gives me an unfair advantage over the guy that's trying to take my life?

That's the most asinine argument I've ever heard.

I'll have to ask some friends about this one.

This is just another factor they have thrown in the mix to stack up charges and weigh you down in the process.
They (The offense) will do everything possible to paint us (the defense) in the worst possible light.

 

[PRasko]

I failed to comprehend that all of this only matters if the self defense shooting goes to trial. So basically, if it's a sketchy shoot, and not clean cut case of self defense, I could understand why some of this would matter.

I read the link in the beginning of this thread, but initially didn't see the link in that thread to the main article.

But I would like to point out, from the original article, how absurdly asinine some of it was. For instance...

The questions might go something like this:
Q: Why do people put different sights on guns?

A: To make it easier to kill people.

If that's your answer during a self defense trial as to why you put different sights on your gun.. a.) you need a better lawyer, and b.) you deserve to be in jail for stupidity..

 

[BehindBlueI's]

If your finger is moving due a sympathetic response or other involuntary movement, 6 lbs. isn't going to be any different than 2 lbs.

The issue is the "security check." I've mentioned this on INGO: https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/handguns/337991-how-can-trigger-too-light-sd.html

Of course a contingent always believes they aren't subject to the same stress reactions other humans are. They are just too special, too good, too well trained. For us mortals, its a real thing.

Force Science News #3: Can You Really Prevent Unintentional Discharges?

Generally its a brushing of the trigger and not a sympathetic pull. Think of how often you touch your wallet in a day. Probably just when you want to pull it out to pay for something. Now imagine you have $2500 in your wallet today. You are going to, without meaning to or realizing it, going to occasionally tap or brush the pocket and reassure yourself you still have the wallet. Today the wallet has more significance to you and mental stress builds up worrying about it and is released by a physical tough to reassure yourself its there.

Think this is BS? How often do new gun carriers tap or adjust their guns unnecessarily?

 

[cosermann]

OP, thanks for sharing the article.

The, "... lighter-than-factory-spec trigger pull," and "the wisdom of keeping factory ‘duty spec’ trigger pulls on any firearm one is likely to use for self-defense purposes," seems to be the thrust of Mas' argument (he starts and ends the post with these ideas).

One reason I don't mess with the factory trigger setup of any carry gun.

 

[LCSOSgt11]

I'll give Ayoob some credit, however, a "good" shoot is just that. Living with it may be another matter, however. No one wants to take a life. One may be forced to. That may be difficult to reconcile with one's self if not properly prepared.

 

[SMiller]

My finger does not touch the trigger unless I am going to fire the weapon, doesn't matter if its a 20lbs trigger or a 0.0001lbs trigger.

I have heard about this bs of trigger weight for years and not once has anyone EVER been able to show a courth case were it was a deciding factor.

I run a Glock - connector with a Apex safety plunger, makes for a 4.3lbs pull, couldn't be happier.

 

[silverspoon]

If you make darn sure it's a good shoot before you shoot, i.e as in the very last resort before you or someone other than the threat dies, the trigger pull poundage issues will take care of themselves. Most likely where modified trigger issues will get someone in trouble is of it's a borderline shoot or one that shouldn't have happened to begin with and they try to defend themselves saying it was an accident etc.

 

[Double T]

I'll use every advantage to win a gunfight if I need to use my gun. If someone is arguing on my trigger weight, then I shouldn't have used it in the first place. Ayoub spouting more fearmongering nonsense.

 

[ryang]

I have never had it happen for a non-LEO. Not sure. The fired gun is evidence because it ties the guy who got shot to the scene. An unfired gun? I don't see it as evidence.

I asked around in the office and no one has had it occur. The consensus is as long as the bug is unfired it is likely to not be taken.

I also asked about taking the gun in justified shoot. It is butt covering. Proves you really shot the guy and aren't covering for a felon or the like. Keeps family of shot person from claiming conspiracy or sloppy investigating etc.

I can say from firsthand experience that they do have the gun in evidence and they also took the knife I had on my person at the time. (Microtech ultratech) I have been told by SBPD that they will be in evidence until at least the end of the trials, if not until the end of any appeals.

On a slightly different note for the legality factors, I was using a S&W with an aftermarket ported barrel and slide, reduced (still over probably 4-5lbs) trigger pull, and zombie max rounds. I have experienced no problems as a result of any of those factors, and while it occurred outside of my home, they did go through and clear/lock down my house and did not take any of the other firearms that were inside.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Stuff

Good info. I changed the quote in case you decide you don't want the specifics online later.

 

[ryang]

Good info. I changed the quote in case you decide you don't want the specifics online later.

I appreciate it, just trying to help and believe that my experience can be used to learn from by both myself and others. Fortunately, everything I said above is already on record and acknowledged by the evidence so is nothing new to anyone involved with the cases at all. Maybe one day the full story of that night can be something that all of INGO can learn from/comment on. That will definitely have to be on a later date though. Definitely an interesting topic and could cause a headache for someone but I still view it as Justified=Justified, nothing else really matters.

 

[lowriderjim]

It seems to me that gun subjects have become like religion and politics, everyone has their own beliefs.

I appreciate this forum because of the views of the members on subjects such as this. I have my personal

opinions on this subject. I just hope that I will never have to test them in a defensive shoot sdituation.