Loading your defensive ammo pros and cons

[StunnedMonkey]

Glad the shooting turned out for the OP.

As for rolling your own defensive ammo, I am not a criminal attorney, but I am a trial lawyer and I know that in front of a jury, I would use every possible angle and nuance to press my position.

Legally speaking, a good shoot is a good shoot is a good shoot, regardless of the ammo. I kind of doubt that the prosecute-don't prosecute decision would hinge on ammunition, but I guess anything is possible.

However, if the decision to prosecute is made and I were to find out that a person loaded their own ammo, I would look into whether I could paint a picture of a guy out there looking to get into a situation where he can get a chance to shoot. Can I make him look like a "tough guy" who wants nothing more than to get challenged so he can play out the ultimate power move?

The Zombie ammo would have me looking to see if I could paint this guy as a "life is a game" type who views killing someone as recreation. Heck, if the guy carried a .45 and was on a forum, I'd seriously look to see if he ever engaged in those back-and-forths where he talked about how much more deadly a .45 was, to make him look, not like a person who was just trying to stop an attack, but like a bloodthirsty killer. Colion Noir's: "... a .45 kills the soul..." quote comes to mind (yes, I know he was joking, a lot of .45 carriers who quote it? That's for the jury.

One way of looking at it is if it's not one thing, it's another. Chances are I'll be able to come up with some kind of angle to give the story pizzazz.

BTW- The "I" here is the trial lawyer "I", not the personal philoshophy "I". I am speaking as a hypothetical prosecutor based upon my knowledge of trying cases.

As for me, I let the Hornady family pack my ammo. They have more experience than I do.

Excellent points. I was thinking along those same lines with regards to the "Zombie" ammo in particular but you articulated it far more effectively that I could have. The truth and facts are what they are but it's how those things can be made to appear to others that really matters, not how they might seem to us.

 

[88E30M50]

They are "Critical Defense" with a green tip. Same bullet, same powder.

A justifiable shoot is a justifiable shoot.

I'm guessing that once the decision regarding whether or not it's justified has been made, the bullet, gun or anything else is moot. The devil here lies in that decision though. I think the point is that if you are using 'Killer' bullets and a highly modified gun, a left leaning DA could be swayed by that info into thinking maybe you sought this engagement. If you were looking for a fight, the decision regarding the good shoot could go bad for you.

 

[Pull Trigger Goes Bang]

The way it was explained to me is that hand loaded ammo could affect the investigation. If investigators don't have an accurate understanding of the exact characteristics of your ammo, such as they could have by test firing other examples of the same ammo from the manufacturer, then they might misinterpret evidence and decide that you aren't telling the truth about distance to the person shot, etc.

In some magazine I read, a columnist (Massad Ayoob?) wrote about a case where investigators compared the evidence to what would be expected if the ammo used was the ammo that the brass was originally made for. That was a very different loading than what the shooter had carried, so they decided the shooter was a liar and a murder and put him on trial.

 

[ScouT6a]

It's as simple as saying, "I use XYZ loading manual number X, I used this many grains of this powder, these bullets and these primers. What the heck is so hard about that? Any lab worth a damn can pull a bullet, match the powder to said can of powder, weigh it on a scale, match the bullets and primers.
I don't load "maximum" loads on any of my calibers. One, I don't like to subject my firearms to unnecessary abuse and two, generally, the max load is not the most accurate.
If someone lies about the details of the shooting there will be lots more evidence to hang you on. Gun shot residue, location of shell casings, blood splatter, witnesses. Don't over think it, folks.

 

[Hohn]

With some manufacturers, you can't get the best loads as loose component bullets.

I wish a guy could reload his own FTX bullets or HSTs. Alas, you can't get the milk without buying the cow.

I'll stick with buying SD ammo.

 

[cosermann]

Store employee shoots and kills robbery suspect - 13 WTHR Indianapolis

See also:
Clerk not charged in Indianapolis store shooting - 13 WTHR Indianapolis

 

[88E30M50]

It's as simple as saying, "I use XYZ loading manual number X, I used this many grains of this powder, these bullets and these primers. What the heck is so hard about that? Any lab worth a damn can pull a bullet, match the powder to said can of powder, weigh it on a scale, match the bullets and primers.
I don't load "maximum" loads on any of my calibers. One, I don't like to subject my firearms to unnecessary abuse and two, generally, the max load is not the most accurate.
If someone lies about the details of the shooting there will be lots more evidence to hang you on. Gun shot residue, location of shell casings, blood splatter, witnesses. Don't over think it, folks.

IIRC, the gunshot residue was the issue in the case described by Ayoob. The defendant was a hand loader and had put together a very light load for his wife to use in her 38 special. She used it to commit suicide and when the forensics folks analyzed the powder residue against commercial data, they came to the conclusion that the lack of substantial residue indicated the gun was fired from farther away than she could have reached if she committed suicide. They would not take the light hand loaded ammo into account because the could not prove all rounds loaded were the hand loads. The end result was the husband was charged with murder because they thought the shot was fired from across the room because of the residue pattern.

His recommendation was to use commercial SD ammo because that could be replicated during analysis and was considered a known entity.

 

[ScouT6a]

"They would not take the light hand loaded ammo into account because the could not prove all rounds loaded were the hand loads."
I don't know who the "they" is in this case but there is a huge difference between being charged with a crime and being convicted of a crime.
If the prosecution wants to ignore evidence, it is up to the defense to bring it to light.

 

[StunnedMonkey]

"They would not take the light hand loaded ammo into account because the could not prove all rounds loaded were the hand loads."
I don't know who the "they" is in this case but there is a huge difference between being charged with a crime and being convicted of a crime.
If the prosecution wants to ignore evidence, it is up to the defense to bring it to light.

There is also a difference between being charged with a crime, and not charged with a crime. Tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousand dollars. Just for me, the point is taken. Why not just use factory ammo for SD and remove that variable? I don't see much reward for using self-loaded ammo in a SD weapon given the potential risks.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I would just note that the question of if a death is caused by murder or by suicide has absolutely nothing to do with a self defense shooting.

 

[xdmdude]

I have heard others in the past in various places warn about the dangers of shooting another person with a modified firearm, and personally because of the stories I have decided to keep my customization to a minimum on any gun that I would use to defend myself with just in case. Not that I don't believe you should be able to as you wish with your legally owned firearm just not worth the slim chance of wrongful prosecution with so many good things out there today.

 

[ScouT6a]

Why not just make sure if you have to use your weapon in self defense or defense of others, it is justifiable?
I think I'll take my chances with reloaded ammunition as I do see the benefits of it.

 

[cedartop]

Why not just make sure if you have to use your weapon in self defense or defense of others, it is justifiable?
I think I'll take my chances with reloaded ammunition as I do see the benefits of it.

Would you care to explain? I definitely don't see the benefit.

edit. Other than cost.

 

[HoughMade]

....edit. Other than cost.

If cost for self defense ammo is the issue....how many people are we talking about shooting?

 

[SERparacord]

If cost for self defense ammo is the issue....how many people are we talking about shooting?

How many neighbors do you have?

 

[StunnedMonkey]

If cost for self defense ammo is the issue....how many people are we talking about shooting?

That was my thought exactly. I get reloading for range ammo. I mean I don't do it, but I understand the benefit. But unless you're routinely shooting your SD ammo on the range I don't see the benefit of using reloads. I've purchased exactly 60 rounds of SD ammo and unless I'm confronted with a serious firefight I don't think I'll need more anytime soon.

 

[45fan]

After reading all of this thread, the main points I have gathered are #1, A good shoot is a good shoot, no matter if you used a slingshot or a howitzer, or if you used "modified" rocks in said slingshot, or factory loaded HE in the howitzer. #2, Anything outside of the "norm" is going to raise a question in a SD shooting, as is to be expected. #3, Do not let your wife carry hand loaded ammunition, and keep guns and ammo locked up out of reach in the presence of suicidal people.

In the OPs situation, he used a typically modified Glock in a fairly non-typical caliber for self defence, using handloads that were unavailable to him in a factory form. Quite a bit there that is out of the realm of "normal", and as such, one should expect to be subjected to a few extra questions. The end result in this situation was as to be expected, a justifiable shoot, and he was cleared of wrong doing in what (according to our experts) is a fairly normal ammount of time.

I typically carry factory ammo in any gun that I carry for SD reasons. I dont subscribe to the fears that I will rot in prison over a box of XTPs that I loaded, assuming the rest of a situation is within the boundaries of a justifiable shooting. To me, the factory ammo available (after inspection for outwardly visual defects) is just about as reliable as anything that I can make at home. I have loaded my own SD ammo before, and will use it if nothing else is available, but considering the time that it takes me to load a box of SD ammo (I tend to be EXTRA attentive to details when its something of that priority) I am OK spending the money to let the factories do it for me.

As far as caliber choice, I tend to stick with the majority accepted "normal" for SD. .380, 9mm, 45 ACP, ect.. I shy away from anything that is labeled a "magnum", as that is just one more point to ponder for a DA. My wife does have, and on occasion carry, a 44 mag, but it is almost exclusively loaded with 44 Special for anything that she might need to use it for. Using Things like a 10mm, 44 Mag, 45-70 ( I do know of a guy who carries a 45-70 derringer) is a bit beyond average in perceived stopping power for SD purposes.

Modifying a gun is just one of those things that is relative to the situation at hand, and what is considered "normal". Walk into a IPDA match with a shotgun and start a shooting rampage, chances are you might just get shot with a full on race gun. If you carry something that looks like it came out of a Buck Rodgers story as you EDC, expect to raise a few eyebrows if you ever find yourself in a situation where you need to use it. A tuned trigger or a polished feed ramp is not likely to even be noticed by anyone that is not an aficionado. Engraving a Death Head on your slide and swastikas on the grips might be another one of those things that would grab a bit of attention in certain situations.

 

[SERparacord]

The DA will be the one that calls good shoot or bad.

 

[cedartop]

That was my thought exactly. I get reloading for range ammo. I mean I don't do it, but I understand the benefit. But unless you're routinely shooting your SD ammo on the range I don't see the benefit of using reloads. I've purchased exactly 60 rounds of SD ammo and unless I'm confronted with a serious firefight I don't think I'll need more anytime soon.

Agreed, that is why I added, other than cost in case that came up as a benefit.

 

[bwframe]

How many rounds of self defense ammo do folks run through their gun to determine reliability and accuracy?