Man OCing Robbed of His Gun

[thompal]

To sit there and say one is tactically aware at all times is laughable at best. How do you do your shopping? You find the aisle with your product, do a 360 check, then walk down the aisle, doing another 360 check when you find and are facing your product, then do you grab the product, put it back down to do yet another check, then eventually place it in your grocery cart? What happens when you load your groceries? Do you open your door 1", do a 360 degree check, open the door another inch, another 360 check, open a little more, another 360 degree check, etc.. Do you make sure you _never_ use two hands when loading groceries or pushing a grocery cart? Please, OCers have just as much situation preparedness as anyone else. Situational preparedness has limitations, unless you go through life doing what 99.99% of people would consider extremely weird behavior (like walking forwards while constantly spinning 360 degrees, checking ever dumpster in the alley before walking past the alley, etc.).

Aw come on. Stop with the strawman already.

There's a HUGE difference in the situations you insist on using (shopping in a busy store) and the situation which is the topic of this thread: at 4AM on a street where there are three people: 1 victim and two robbers, and the victim didn't know there was anyone else nearby until he FELT something pressing against his head.

In your example, it's busy - there are people everywhere, many within several feet of you.

In the topic of this thread, there SHOULD be NOBODY nearby. The fact is that it was 4am, presumably quiet, probably no "hustle and bustle" to distract you, and apparently no distracting activities you must perform (driving, shopping, loading your trunk). If there is ANYONE within 200', what better thing would you have to do than to stay aware of them? If there's TWO people running up behind you, don't you think that even a marginal amount of situational awareness would suggest turning around to see what they're doing?

You make it sound like being concerned about two people behind you at 4am is an unrealistic concept.

 

[Indy317]

See the last line in my last post that you quoted.....I said there are people that don't do it for personal attention, just that most of the ones that I RUN INTO and a lot of stuff posted here on INGO. Like I said, if someone OC's becaue that is what they are comfortable with and/or feel it gives them a tactical advantage then that's fine. It's the people that self admittedly do it for the attention and "shock factor" that I have issue with.

To me, anyone who constantly comes in and posts about _nothing_ happening while they OCed fit the bill of those wanting shock value and/or attention. If you want to OC, fine, but why come and post that _nothing happened_??? I understand someone who OCs posting issues they have had, but every time I think of OCers, I get the picture of the poster who said they were "craving some police interaction" and the one poster who admitted that he changed up his usually course of business to try and get a reaction from a gas station clerk. Talk about folks with an "all eyes on me" complex.

The fact is that it was 4am, presumably quiet, probably no "hustle and bustle" to distract you, and apparently no distracting activities you must perform (driving, shopping, loading your trunk). If there is ANYONE within 200', what better thing would you have to do than to stay aware of them? If there's TWO people running up behind you, don't you think that even a marginal amount of situational awareness would suggest turning around to see what they're doing?

You make it sound like being concerned about two people behind you at 4am is an unrealistic concept.

OK. So are you saying that if a person is out at 4AM OCing, they should stare down _everyone_ in the area until that person disappears from sight? So what if the person is coming up behind you? Do you automatically get to draw down on the person, for nothing more than walking fast towards you? Not all thugs are going to expose their weapons well before the attack. Not only that, like with the pack attack in Broad Ripple, when is one justified in drawing down when fists and feet end up being the weapon? So you look back, see two guys walking your way, the same direction you are traveling. Nothing is open, what do you do? Stopping to watch them, and keep eyes on them could actually make matters worse as the two guys might not be planning on doing anything, but then they have this guy with a gun now staring them down. At anytime, I don't see how anyone can be 100% in situational awareness unless they have their gun drawn, pointed towards the ground, keeping watch on anyone around them until that person(s) pass.

 

[ATM]

If you want to OC, fine, but why come and post that _nothing happened_???

To counter all the anti-OC hype about people freaking out and what a hassle you will endure if you dare not keep it hidden.

Talk about folks with an "all eyes on me" complex.

You'd think that those who don't want any attention would appreciate the cover provided by those who do.

 

[BloodEclipse]

To me, anyone who constantly comes in and posts about _nothing_ happening while they OCed fit the bill of those wanting shock value and/or attention. If you want to OC, fine, but why come and post that _nothing happened_??? Talk about folks with an "all eyes on me" complex.

Your assumption is comical.
The reason most post their non-events is to show a pattern to those who may be considering OC but may be hesitant.
Each post of non-event shows prospective OCers that they won't be subjected to screaming fleeing masses, won't be thrown to the ground by the cops, and won't be asked to leave every establishment they walk into.
We are not looking for attention, in fact the opposite is true. We want guns worn by citizens to be seen as commonplace as people with cell phones.
Keep making assumptions cause you know what that makes you.

 

[dburkhead]

To me, anyone who constantly comes in and posts about _nothing_ happening while they OCed fit the bill of those wanting shock value and/or attention.

Or it could be that they're simply refuting the oft repeated meme that "if you OC then you will be the target of police attention" or that people will run screaming in the aisles or what have you.

Those canards are repeated often enough that some folk might see the "nothing happened" stories as a valuable counterweight.

 

[alwalker84]

Aw come on. Stop with the strawman already.

There's a HUGE difference in the situations you insist on using (shopping in a busy store) and the situation which is the topic of this thread: at 4AM on a street where there are three people: 1 victim and two robbers, and the victim didn't know there was anyone else nearby until he FELT something pressing against his head.

+1

Interesting thread to say the least...

 

[thompal]

OK. So are you saying that if a person is out at 4AM OCing, they should stare down _everyone_ in the area until that person disappears from sight? So what if the person is coming up behind you? Do you automatically get to draw down on the person, for nothing more than walking fast towards you? Not all thugs are going to expose their weapons well before the attack. Not only that, like with the pack attack in Broad Ripple, when is one justified in drawing down when fists and feet end up being the weapon? So you look back, see two guys walking your way, the same direction you are traveling. Nothing is open, what do you do? Stopping to watch them, and keep eyes on them could actually make matters worse as the two guys might not be planning on doing anything, but then they have this guy with a gun now staring them down.

Actually, I can speak to this, since I work downtown, regularly get off work anywhere from midnight to 5am, and have to walk 4 blocks to the parking garage.

I will say: yes. If I am walking to my car and there are other people, I pay attention to them. If there are people a half-block behind me, I use reflections in windows to see if they are gaining on me, or slightly turn my head as if looking into a store or while checking doorways. If there are two guys walking behind me and they ARE gaining on me, I will stop, turn 90 degrees, and light a cig while using my peripheral vision to keep an eye on them. If they keep going on their merry way, then all I have done is taken a smoke break (and ruined my night vision). If they immediately change direction or make a comment, then I'll consider something else.
Would I draw my weapon? Of course not. Only a moron would draw simply because someone else is nearby. I would probably have my hand in my pocket gripping my pocket pistol, but wouldn't make any move to draw.

It's not all that difficult at 4am to know who's around, basically which direction they're going, and if they deserve greater attention. I would say it's MUCH easier to maintain reasonable awareness at 4am, since the fact is, if there is another person on the street, they are the thing of which you should be aware. At 9pm, there are hundreds of people going in all directions.

[Edit: Oh, and I said NOTHING about OC vs CC. I fail to see how your choice of carry method should impact situational awareness)

 

[turnandshoot4]

After 87 posts I have figured this much out.

1. Someone MIGHT have been disarmed nearly 4 years ago while OC'ing.

2. This thread isn't OC vs CC but rather an anti-OC thread.

3. Kisses from strippers are never good.

4. This must be a hotly contested issue for the officers of INGO. Beacuse they are here.

5. So are the mods.

 

[jeremy]

Carry how the hack ever you want. Does not matter one bit wheather it is OC or CC. Just Carry! We have entirely to much wasted drama on this subject! Why not focus on something worthwhile like the Constitutionality of NFA, or the fact that we have to have a pink piece of paper to exercise a Right.

Just my .02 cents!

 

[turnandshoot4]

Out of rep. Argh.

 

[Bill of Rights]

One case of an OCers gun being stolen is of little consequence. If I could find you a case (or a hundred since it is much more common) of a CCer in the same circumstance would declare CC to be tactically unsound? Most importantly, beyond personal experience non of us will ever know exactly how often the deterrence actually takes effect. There are no available statics and therefore no way to prove your biased theories. No carry method is an excuse for tactical lethargy.

Exactly. I think the exception proves the rule.

This is alleged to have happened, 3 years and 5 months ago, in Virginia.

1. Did the individual have a CC license as required by Viriginia law? Was legal CC an option in this case?

2. Was he coming from or going to a tavern? OCing is the only legal way to carry into an establishment serving alcohol in Virginia.

Good point. In VA, isn't/wasn't(back then) OC sans permit lawful?

Wrong. I find it amazing that folks who OC don't think the gun they are carrying could be the target of the theft. We have people shooting cashiers for what, a few hundred bucks, but no one would _ever_ shoot an OCer in the back of their head for an $400-$800 gun?? I have always assumed that if you get caught up in some sort of robbery, and the robber _knows_ you have a gun (either by sight, or by being patted down), they are going to take your gun. Guns=money. Right now, money is tight for some. Again, I fully believe that the vast majority of thugs who see a person with an exposed handgun is likely to assume that person is a cop. If OCing becomes more prevalent, this could change if the information was such that the thugs knew that some folks, with no badge or police shirt, OCing were just your common citizen.

To sit there and say one is tactically aware at all times is laughable at best. How do you do your shopping? You find the aisle with your product, do a 360 check, then walk down the aisle, doing another 360 check when you find and are facing your product, then do you grab the product, put it back down to do yet another check, then eventually place it in your grocery cart? What happens when you load your groceries? Do you open your door 1", do a 360 degree check, open the door another inch, another 360 check, open a little more, another 360 degree check, etc.. Do you make sure you _never_ use two hands when loading groceries or pushing a grocery cart? Please, OCers have just as much situation preparedness as anyone else. Situational preparedness has limitations, unless you go through life doing what 99.99% of people would consider extremely weird behavior (like walking forwards while constantly spinning 360 degrees, checking ever dumpster in the alley before walking past the alley, etc.).

IIRC, Indy317, you are a police officer. As such, at some point in your career, and maybe still, you OC while on duty. Sure, we talk about "head on a swivel" or any of several other phrases, but my question back to you would be if, when in uniform, you are (or were) situationally aware, or if you depend on that uniform to protect you? I would think (and HOPE!) the former. You don't do the full-time, 360 spins, you're just generally aware of who's around you. You still might miss some things/people, but you know that there are two guys intently homing in on you from your six. You recognize that "urban outdoorsman" sitting next to that storefront because he's there every day. You get the idea.

I think if someone is trying to take another person's gun, deadly force is justified. The problem is that I think the vast majority of OCers wouldn't even see it coming. I have seen OCers (even cops) carrying kids, turning their backs on other people, etc.. The only way to practice 100% situational awareness would be to constantly watch everyone, till they were gone. Then checking ever second, maybe two seconds, to make sure they weren't there. In a place like Walmart, or out on the street, it would mean never going out there with people around. It would mean that if there were only two people, you and someone else, you cross the street to put as much distance between that person and yourself.

I could careless what some folks say. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that I could take the guns of 75% of the OCers out there. The ones I have seen, 99%, as their situational awareness was to totally turn their back to me, kid in one hand, shopping cart or basket in the other.

Now as a addition to your question: Say one is unsuccessful at getting the gun, and you knock them down on the floor. You have the gun, wonder how many people would still shoot given the adrenaline rush alone? That would have to be one of the most scariest things that could happen to a person. Only time will tell if OCers become targeted solely for their weapons.

As a police officer, would YOU shoot such a person? Granted, you have other tools, like a set of cuffs, for example, on you. Could you take their guns? Maybe. I wouldn't advise anyone trying to do so, not the least of which because it's unlawful.

I'd get dizzy...all that spinning around.

Public, I didn't realize you were so.....fit...

You can always tell when a sacred cow has been gored by the reactions of the faithful. I leaned away from the idea of OC when I started viewing this forum, but many of the arguments were compelling, and shifted my view. I don't however, have strong feelings one way or the other, except that it should be a right, and I admire those who assert it.

That said, the fact that this might have happened to someone OCing doesn't destroy your case. Just acknowledge that now the people who disagree with you have a bit of factual ammunition. You don't have to blame the guy's situational awareness, or start getting mad.

Even though there's a lack of evidence (but then, the sample is small) it doesn't hurt your case to acknowledge that yes, openly wearing might create a tactical disadvantage, just as it doesn't hurt the CC only case to admit that OC probably has deterred crime.

You look bad when you can't acknowledge that there is any possible way at all that there is any imagined possible argument against your own point.

I don't care HOW people carry. I think they should carry for their own protection. My personal preference is CC. I like having the freedom to choose for myself, though, which I'll do that day.

No, no one is "always on 100%" situationally aware, It's impossible. In contrast, though, you also don't, to use Col. Cooper's model, "live in White, unaware and unprepared". To continue his fine example, "Yellow" is a state of relaxed awareness. You walk with your head up and remain aware of who's around you; who might become a threat, while at the same time, you don't suspect anyone of anything. You just have already thought about "what if?" You understand that if you turn or pass a blind corner, there is a chance that someone is there and that person is lying in wait for you, and you decide to take that risk.... or not.

Lord knows, I'm no expert on this stuff, but I know how to read it and how to practice it. It ain't rocket science. Nonetheless, I don't want to represent myself as the next Ayoob or Awerbuck or Cooper or VanVlymen. I'm not, not by a very, very long shot. For those who speak against OC so strongly, I have a question, though:

If OC is so useless, why does every uniformed police officer carry in that fashion?

Please don't tell me "because it's expected"; paradigms are essentially useless for that kind of model. All fire trucks are red, right?

I do want to thank all of you for keeping this so very civil and polite. Very nicely done, INGO.

Blessings,
Bill

(ETA: I've tried multiple times to delete the multiple quotes for a single post. No can do. Dunno why.)

 

[Bill of Rights]

Out of rep. Argh.

Got him for you.

 

[turnandshoot4]

You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. Thank you.

 

[youngda9]

Your assumption is comical.
The reason most post their non-events is to show a pattern to those who may be considering OC but may be hesitant.
Each post of non-event shows prospective OCers that they won't be subjected to screaming fleeing masses, won't be thrown to the ground by the cops, and won't be asked to leave every establishment they walk into.
We are not looking for attention, in fact the opposite is true. We want guns worn by citizens to be seen as commonplace as people with cell phones.
Keep making assumptions cause you know what that makes you.

OC-ers post all of their "NON-events" and all of their "events". Justify away...

 

[turnandshoot4]

And the anti-OC'ers post their ONE possible event.

 

[Indy317]

And the anti-OC'ers post their ONE possible event.

And the pro-OCers post how they are 100% aware of _everything_ around them, and talk as if someone grabbing their gun, or getting the one up on them, isn't even a possibility.

 

[cce1302]

And the pro-OCers post how they are 100% aware of _everything_ around them, and talk as if someone grabbing their gun, or getting the one up on them, isn't even a possibility.

And the anti-OCers post how they are 100% aware of _everything_ around them, and talk as if someone grabbing their gun, or getting the one up on them, isn't even a possibility.

Hey Indy, just wondering, in the 3 years since this occurrance, how many people not OCing do you think have been mugged, compared to the one that was mugged while OCing?

 

[turnandshoot4]

And the pro-OCers post how they are 100% aware of _everything_ around them, and talk as if someone grabbing their gun, or getting the one up on them, isn't even a possibility.

I do believe Bill addressed this in his post. Why do police OC?

 

[LPMan59]

this is fun

 

[kingnereli]

Sure it might have been different "IF", if this if that, if horses were wishes then beggers would ride.

So, you're willing to trust a statistical anomaly to come to a reliable conclusion about carry method without considering other contingencies? Very educated.

If a lot of things, I don't deal much in ifs until the "next time".

Umm, good for you. I try to be prepared ahead of time.

Now how about a few of you guys with the spider senses and eyes in the back of your head step in to the real world. LOL.

Nonsensical hyperbole.

That's what is funny. Half laughing at kids and half laughing at what it was like to be one of them. ROTFL.

Entertained, but misinformed.

.