Man seen with a hose nozzle, shot without warning by police

[Armed Citizen]

Listen, I have done my share of "questioning LEO's actions" on this forum, But if the facts as we know it to be true, He raised and pointed what looked like a gun at an officer, there are only seconds to respond if you are an officer, every second they pause could be one second closer to their death. If the news reports are true, I would support the officers. This would be no different if a person is stopped by a cop for speeding and the cop approached the car and the occupant rolled down the dark tinted windows and pointed a hose sprayer at the cop. What do you expect to happen? REMEMBER THEY ONLY HAVE SECONDS TO REACT.

 

[jbombelli]

Point something that looks like a POS little mouse gun at me, and I'll shoot you. Period. I'm not going to sit around and wait for your next move.

But I can't help but wonder how this ACTUALLY went down. To paraphrase a LOT of cops, there're two sides to every story, and the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

 

[Liberty Sanders]

This guy's actions were so stupid that I tend to believe this is a suicide by cop.

 

[samot]

shoot first .......... ask questions later

 

[Pocketman]

The family should sue the garden hose nozzle manufacturer for not building a blue, or at least orange tipped, tool.

Seriously, one would think there were ways to defuse this situation short of deadly force, but we weren't there and some garden nozzles are even marketed as "pistol."

 

[samot]

He aimed it at the officers. Two hand grip, raised it to aim it.

At that point, would YOU have taken a few seconds to see if he was ready to listen to commands?

I see it as self-defense on the part of the officers. Just my opinion.

Soooo.... "we thought it was a gun " is a good defence ?!?!
Key word "thought"

 

[samot]

Listen, I have done my share of "questioning LEO's actions" on this forum, But if the facts as we know it to be true, He raised and pointed what looked like a gun at an officer, there are only seconds to respond if you are an officer, every second they pause could be one second closer to their death. If the news reports are true, I would support the officers. This would be no different if a person is stopped by a cop for speeding and the cop approached the car and the occupant rolled down the dark tinted windows and pointed a hose sprayer at the cop. What do you expect to happen? REMEMBER THEY ONLY HAVE SECONDS TO REACT.

Im gonna throw this out there for ya !!!

A hose sprayer, allthough pistol grip in nature , is not a ****ing firearm !!

Im glad he didnt have a big piece of Schedule 40 PVC 4ft long, copper may have "thought" it was an RPG

 

[slimplmbr]

I am not sure so I will ask: Isn't it S.O.P. to give a command to "drop the weapon" before opening fire, unless you are fired upon first?

 

[88GT]

The officers are reporting that he pointed the nozzle at them with a two handed grip. If that part is correct, I can't blame them for that. You shouldn't have to wait until someone shoots before you react.

Of course, let a citizen react the same way and only find a water nozzle and now we're talking about a different thing entirely.

Your last comment is enough for me to find fault with the LEOs. I personally have a hard time with the idea that we mere serfs are held to different standards where defense of our person is involved. If it's good enough for LE, it should damn well be good enough for the non-LEO citizen.

I am not sure so I will ask: Isn't it S.O.P. to give a command to "drop the weapon" before opening fire, unless you are fired upon first?

I think that's a large part of the issue. Granted, being drunk, the now-dead individual might not have responded any differently. But it does beg the question at which point in an encounter can LE claim threat of imminent harm and open fire? Does the target have physically possess an object? Or can he simply be reaching into his jacket pocket to procure the requested ID?

I think this scenario belies the claim that LE is really and truly held to a higher standard. Different, yes. Higher? I'm not so sure.

 

[mattkellyind]

IMHO It boils down to incidents like these does nothing BUT hurt gun owners everywhere. Whether the guy had a drunk death wish or the police did not try to order him to disarm, it still does not help our cause. If it was a gun and he was ready for a firefight than the officers were heroes. Since it wasn't now there are idiot cops. I appreciate my local boys in blue but am not blind to the fact that many mistakes are made and there are dirty and unethicial leos out there. Sad for the family of the guy and sad for the family of the leos. Real sad for the gun owners of america that will face the reprecussions from these acts. I was not there I only hope it was justified response to the problem as it unfolded, the leos involved have to live with there actions morally and legaly.

 

[grizman]

Justified shoot my Arse!

 

[96firephoenix]

I don't see how this is justified at all. if they ordered him to drop the weapon, and upon hearing that he then aimed an object that vaguely resembled a handgun at an officer who had identified himself as an officer, it would be justified.

he was drunk. how drunk was he? are we talking .09 or .20? there's a big difference there, and possibly the difference between seeing a bunch of random people pull up and point guns at you and seeing a bunch of cops pull up and point guns at you. even sober, I think there'd be lead flying at the first group.

-1 to the MWAG caller.
-1 to the cops
-1 for being drunk on someone else's porch before 5pm

yea, he made some bad choices, but should he have gotten shot for it? no.

 

[clgustaveson]

Is it illegal to carry a garden hose nozzle in California too?

 

[Liberty Sanders]

I am not sure so I will ask: Isn't it S.O.P. to give a command to "drop the weapon" before opening fire, unless you are fired upon first?

No, it isn't.

 

[clgustaveson]

Hindsight is 20/20 if there was some nut case pointing a water hose at me in the middle of december he would get shot too...

 

[88GT]

No, it isn't.

If that is the case, then how is a police shooting ever judged against a standard beyond the word of the LEO involved?

And how can LE expect the public to have any faith in their collective integrity if there is no independent process to be followed that eliminates the reliance on the officer's personal integrity?

It just doesn't pass the smell test for practical implications to give LEO carte blanche to make decisions of that nature without some sort of policy in place. Not that I'm saying you're wrong. I just find it hard to believe that LE agencies haven't figured this one out yet.

 

[Pocketman]

Since we're armchair quarterbacking, I may as well add another 2 cents. After reading several online articles and comments, I can understand the community uproar. The officers were apparently on the scene for several minutes, perhaps as many as 10 and there is no indication they verbally challenged the subject at all. He was shot multiple times with handguns and a shotgun, and then handcuffed. Again, I wasn't there but a man down with 20 bullet holes in his body does not seem like a threat worth cuffing.

On the other hand, from photos of the "weapon" it is clearly a nozzle, but in a person's hands it could be mistaken for a gun. Add to that the 911 call and dispatch indicated the subject was armed.

While not trying to pass judgement, the officers involved may do it differently if given the opportunity. On the other hand, maybe not. I think we all agree it probably would have been different if they had know it was not a firearm. We now have that knowledge, the officers then did not.

I once confronted a teenager with a toy gun. He told me it was a toy and immediately dropped it when instructed to do so. Everyone went home that day. Tragically, the Long Beach incident did not end so well.

 

[rambone]

and he pointed the nozzle in their direction.

He aimed it at the officers. Two hand grip, raised it to aim it.

But if the facts as we know it to be true, He raised and pointed what looked like a gun at an officer,

Point something that looks like a POS little mouse gun at me, and I'll shoot you.

Hindsight is 20/20 if there was some nut case pointing a water hose at me in the middle of december he would get shot too...

ALLEGEDLY... Allegedly he pointed the hose nozzle. What cop in their right mind isn't going to claim he was in danger after he just shot a guy? That shooting could have unfolded 10 different ways and all ended with the same statement being given to the public.

I'm a self defense advocate. If - IN FACT - the guy actually pointed the hose nozzle exactly as the police say, then this could be argued to be a justified shoot in my opinion. However, right now it is their word against a dead guy's.

For all we know, this story involves a bunch of excitable gun-hating California folks gunning up for a Wild West Shootout because of an MWAG call. They start sneaking around the house forming a "containment area" instead of contacting the man in any way. Next thing you know somebody opens fire and we need a good explanation for what just happened.

He was shot multiple times with handguns and a shotgun, and then handcuffed. Again, I wasn't there but a man down with 20 bullet holes in his body does not seem like a threat worth cuffing.

That part isn't really adding to the competence of these guys, IMO. Especially when I took a glimpse of his scary nozzle.

 

[rambone]

The article says the cop could "allegedly" hear the guy playing with "gun" and it made realistic sounds. If their story is even true... that means they were definitely within earshot of the guy, and chose not to communicate. They just popped out from behind a corner and bang... Dead guy minding his own business.

One way or the other, I wish that contact would have been made before sneaking up on him. We've got megaphones, telephones, and loud voices. Why not use them instead of entering private property looking for that scary MWAG?

Don't I have a right to be an MWAG? Why do we even respond to these idiotic calls?

 

[clgustaveson]

ALLEGEDLY... Allegedly he pointed the hose nozzle. What cop in their right mind isn't going to claim he was in danger after he just shot a guy? That shooting could have unfolded 10 different ways and all ended with the same statement being given to the public.

I'm a self defense advocate. If - IN FACT - the guy actually pointed the hose nozzle exactly as the police say, then this could be argued to be a justified shoot in my opinion. However, right now it is their word against a dead guy's.

For all we know, this story involves a bunch of excitable gun-hating California folks gunning up for a Wild West Shootout because of an MWAG call. They start sneaking around the house forming a "containment area" instead of contacting the man in any way. Next thing you know somebody opens fire and we need a good explanation for what just happened.



That part isn't really adding to the competence of these guys, IMO. Especially when I took a glimpse of his scary nozzle.

Ok, allegedly point a water hose at me in December and see if you walk away....