"Manhunt" the go to option?

[docapos]

I know we have had discussions on the legalities of these door to door searches already so setting that aside what about the frequency of them occurring. After reading another article on a locked down, SWAT roaming the streets, city it seems this is becoming the go to standard for LEO. For reference there was Christopher Dorner CA, 2/7/13, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev MA, 4/19/13, stabbing suspect CA, 4/19/13 and that's just off the top of my head. Is this the media flavor of the week or is it a change in tactical response?

 

[ticktwrter]

I don't think it is something that will happen a lot. I think it is a situation by situation event. The officers I work with have no desire to violate anyone's civil rights.

 

[indyjack]

The officers I work with have no desire to violate anyone's civil rights.

while i'm sure that's true, you have to consider the fact that almost anyone (police included) can be frightened into behaving in a way contrary to their beliefs, ethics, and morals. this is basic psychology. putting anyone in a state of fear causes them to be more easily manipulated into doing almost anything.

 

[ticktwrter]

while i'm sure that's true, you have to consider the fact that almost anyone (police included) can be frightened into behaving in a way contrary to their beliefs, ethics, and morals. this is basic psychology. putting anyone in a state of fear causes them to be more easily manipulated into doing almost anything.

Yep, we still hire from the human race but that doesn't mean it happens all the time.

 

[docapos]

I agree with both ticktwrter and indyjack no you don't want to abuse civil rights but how many officers wouldn't want to catch the man who stabbed an 8yr old? i know that 3 doesn't make a national policy change but it seems that the baby steps are falling into place because hey it worked to find that active shooter and then again to track down a bomber and will probably work again to find one guy who stabbed a child so why not continue to use it?

 

[Trigger Time]

SWAT is used more than it should be nationwide in my current opinion and until I'm shown proof it's not that's what I'm sticking with.

 

[HmDBrian]

I agree with both ticktwrter and indyjack no you don't want to abuse civil rights but how many officers wouldn't want to catch the man who stabbed an 8yr old? i know that 3 doesn't make a national policy change but it seems that the baby steps are falling into place because hey it worked to find that active shooter and then again to track down a bomber and will probably work again to find one guy who stabbed a child so why not continue to use it?

Your wrong, it did not help catch the bombing suspect. A man who went out to smoke a cigarette after they gave the ok for his area to be off lockdown seen the kid in his boat and called the police. Dont go around thinking these BS searches are what fou d this guy.

 

[docapos]

Your wrong, it did not help catch the bombing suspect. A man who went out to smoke a cigarette after they gave the ok for his area to be off lockdown seen the kid in his boat and called the police. Dont go around thinking these BS searches are what fou d this guy.

Apologies, you are absolutely correct but how did the media spin it? Boston bombing manhunt's success | National News - WGAL Home
one line in the story not even offering details.

 

[mdm2272]

Welcome to the police state

 

[Black Cloud]

Let's not forget that almost all the govt. agencies have their own JBT squads now. Training, training everywhere, but not a bullet for the regular joe...

 

[ModernGunner]

So, is the moral of the story is that it's better to be one of the 'JBT's', or one of the 'sheep'?

 

[Denny347]

Sensationalism at its' finest. We have a handful of incidents (3?) out of literally 100's of thousands of "manhunts" that happen every year. The examples are VERY rare because they are so labor intensive, logistical nightmares, and extremely expensive. Most of the time these "manhunts" are performed 5-10 officers on average even on a department as large as ours. More than 10 and the busiest district in Indianapolis comes to halt. Not something we can do for very long.

 

[Trigger Time]

Sensationalism at its' finest. We have a handful of incidents (3?) out of literally 100's of thousands of "manhunts" that happen every year. The examples are VERY rare because they are so labor intensive, logistical nightmares, and extremely expensive. Most of the time these "manhunts" are performed 5-10 officers on average even on a department as large as ours. More than 10 and the busiest district in Indianapolis comes to halt. Not something we can do for very long.

In what cases do you think a "SWAT" response is necessary? Is it overused nationwide as a whole and if so what mindset needs to change to fix this?

I do believe in officer safety and if you know a guy is shooting at cops sure take the time to call out swat if you can back the guy into a corner or surround him. I swat is being used to arrest drug dealers or others that are under surveillance why not just arrest them while they are outside of their home?

I will keep an open mind on this. I admit maybe I shouldn't have said certain things before without knowing all the facts so help me understand please.

 

[Denny347]

In what cases do you think a "SWAT" response is necessary? Is it overused nationwide as a whole and if so what mindset needs to change to fix this?

I do believe in officer safety and if you know a guy is shooting at cops sure take the time to call out swat if you can back the guy into a corner or surround him. I swat is being used to arrest drug dealers or others that are under surveillance why not just arrest them while they are outside of their home?

I will keep an open mind on this. I admit maybe I shouldn't have said certain things before without knowing all the facts so help me understand please.

I am no SWAT expert. However, from my personal experience, SWAT gets called out when we have armed suspects locked down in an area (house or outside in a perimeter) and there is time to assemble them to make apprehension. 99.9% of the time all it takes is our negotiator yelling at them to surrender, arrest is made without force, SWAT is there in case the negotiator fails. I cannot speak for other departments around the country but I am sure there are departments where they are overused. I see, first hand, special units in our department that "make work" to justify their existence and I'm sure there are SWAT teams in quiet cities/towns that need to justify their expense. Just my opinion.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Let's not forget that almost all the govt. agencies have their own JBT squads now. Training, training everywhere, but not a bullet for the regular joe...

Aren't cops having problems getting ammo too?

Is this the media flavor of the week or is it a change in tactical response?

Media flavor. I mean LAPD certainly stepped on their own crank but the "manhunts" are not more common just because a couple have been in the news.

No one wants the coppers shooting up the town like they did in LA but the police have to go after knuckleheads.

 

[Smokepole]

Your wrong, it did not help catch the bombing suspect. A man who went out to smoke a cigarette after they gave the ok for his area to be off lockdown seen the kid in his boat and called the police. Dont go around thinking these BS searches are what found this guy.

That is correct. And with respect to the dedicated LEO's here on INGO, the awful truth is that while the cops and SWAT were busy forcing law abiding citizens out of their houses AT GUN POINT and storming their way in, they completely missed Tsarnaev who was hiding in a boat in someones BACKYARD. Tunnelvision much? He almost got away because of the myopia of the JBT's that were so intent on rousting the general public and finally getting to put into practice the urban assault tactics that they had been training for and show how good they were at it. EPIC FAIL.

What we haven't seen or heard about is the innocent, law abiding citizens who were manhandled and zip tied because they questioned and/or resisted armed intruders STORMING THEIR HOME WITHOUT A WARRANT (it is the nature of these things. Especially living in America where we are supposed to be free and the people still think they have rights). When quietly canvassing the neighborhoods, keeping hyper vigilant and checking EVERY nook and cranny the way things used to be done, would apparently have yielded better results. All the while NOT violating anyone's Civil Rights. And I have seen absolutely nothing about this in the media. 25 years ago that would have been a huge question mark as far as the media were concerned.

This is where our Government has brought us. Does anyone honestly think that it will willingly put things back without being made to?

 

[Smokepole]

Aren't cops having problems getting ammo too?



Media flavor. I mean LAPD certainly stepped on their own crank but the "manhunts" are not more common just because a couple have been in the news.

No one wants the coppers shooting up the town like they did in LA but the police have to go after knuckleheads.

I agree, the LEO's have to go after the knuckleheads and there are certainly many legitimate uses for SWAT and other 'Special Units" and I am glad that they are there, the only objection that I have (so far) is to warrantless "neighborhood sweeps" that force law abiding citizens out of their homes at gun point which are blatant violations of the public's Civil Rights. No matter IF there has been current law enacted. What is it that many here say, an Unconstitutional law is not a legal?

Is it okay if they "only do it a little"?

 

[Trigger Time]

I am no SWAT expert. However, from my personal experience, SWAT gets called out when we have armed suspects locked down in an area (house or outside in a perimeter) and there is time to assemble them to make apprehension. 99.9% of the time all it takes is our negotiator yelling at them to surrender, arrest is made without force, SWAT is there in case the negotiator fails. I cannot speak for other departments around the country but I am sure there are departments where they are overused. I see, first hand, special units in our department that "make work" to justify their existence and I'm sure there are SWAT teams in quiet cities/towns that need to justify their expense. Just my opinion.

That doesn't sound unreasonable. The creating work scenario is a problem at all levels of govt. it's the old, spend it or lose it next budget mentality. Sometimes I think that creates problems or escalates incidents and that is a concern of mine.
I don't know what the balance is between officer AND civilian safety and also not wasting tax money.
I just don't ever want to see the Boston lockdown and home invasion rights violations for "safety" scenario play out here in Indy.

 

[Denny347]

Aren't cops having problems getting ammo too?

Yeah but it's more for money reasons and not availability. Training is the first cut it seems when money gets tight.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Training is the first cut it seems when money gets tight.

I am not telling you anything new, but training is hard to quantify. The Grooming Standard is easy to document.

the only objection that I have (so far) is to warrantless "neighborhood sweeps" that force law abiding citizens out of their homes at gun point which are blatant violations of the public's Civil Rights.

With you there.