maybe Toyota wasn't totally to blame?

[LPMan59]

Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents - WSJ.com

"The results suggest that some drivers who said their Toyota and Lexus vehicles surged out of control were mistakenly flooring the accelerator when they intended to jam on the brakes."

or maybe some people were dummies and their attorneys suggested another scenario? or maybe this runs deeper than just user error?

 

[gage]

man, sounds like people that drive Toyota and Lexus Vehicles are more squirreled up... than drivers of other vehicles.
This doesn't settle well with my common sense sensors.
Do you think the above mentioned squirrels, I mean victims have been bought out???

I'm can believe that condensation is a more probable source of acceleration problems... much more so than the floor mats too.
Toyota Sudden Acceleration Timeline |

 

[Joe Williams]

man, sounds like people that drive Toyota and Lexus Vehicles are more squirreled up... than drivers of other vehicles.
This doesn't settle well with my common sense sensors.
Do you think the above mentioned squirrels, I mean victims have been bought out???

I'm can believe that condensation is a more probable source of acceleration problems... much more so than the floor mats too.
Toyota Sudden Acceleration Timeline |

Not just Toyota. Audi became the victim of sensationalist claims and ambulance chasers a few years back, too.

 

[downzero]

I never really thought drive by wire was a good idea anyway. This was bound to happen.

There's a reason why steering is still mechanical.

 

[Joe Williams]

I never really thought drive by wire was a good idea anyway. This was bound to happen.

There's a reason why steering is still mechanical.

I sure hope they never use these types of systems for airplanes. Can you imagine how ineffective and dangerous airplanes like the F-16 would be if they used fly by wire controls?

 

[shibumiseeker]

I sure hope they never use these types of systems for airplanes. Can you imagine how ineffective and dangerous airplanes like the F-16 would be if they used fly by wire controls?

Those planes might kill people!

 

[downzero]

I sure hope they never use these types of systems for airplanes. Can you imagine how ineffective and dangerous airplanes like the F-16 would be if they used fly by wire controls?

That is a really ignorant thing to say. The inspection process and maintenance, as well as the standards for production of anything related to aviation is not even remotely comparable to that for automobiles.

If you want to pay $30 million for an automobile and $10,000 a month in maintenance, I'm sure it can drive itself and be completely safe.

 

[XMil]

That is a really ignorant thing to say. The inspection process and maintenance, as well as the standards for production of anything related to aviation is not even remotely comparable to that for automobiles.

If you want to pay $30 million for an automobile and $10,000 a month in maintenance, I'm sure it can drive itself and be completely safe.

How about this then; all those 80,000 lb trucks you see rolling down the interstate. Yup, "drive by wire."

 

[Denny347]

That is a really ignorant thing to say. The inspection process and maintenance, as well as the standards for production of anything related to aviation is not even remotely comparable to that for automobiles.

If you want to pay $30 million for an automobile and $10,000 a month in maintenance, I'm sure it can drive itself and be completely safe.

If I may, I believe Joe was being facetious. I could be wrong however. I was under the inpression that aircraft have been "fly-by-wire" for some time.

 

[downzero]

How about this then; all those 80,000 lb trucks you see rolling down the interstate. Yup, "drive by wire."

A Diesel engine is a totally different animal as well. There is no throttle on a Diesel engine.

If I may, I believe Joe was being facetious. I could be wrong however. I was under the inpression that aircraft have been "fly-by-wire" for some time.

They are. They also cost millions of dollars and get more maintenance in a single month than a car likely gets in its entire lifetime.

They also have redundant systems for things like this, which would be hard to justify, economically, on a car.

 

[Redemption]

Anything other than Government Motors is to blame.

 

[SD45]

"A Diesel engine is a totally different animal as well. There is no throttle on a Diesel engine."

Huh? Maybe I am totally missing something but in the diesel engine rpm is regulated by how much fuel is introduced into the chambers (very simplistic I know....but for this argument...good enough)

Sooooo....if the concern is throttle by wire in gas powered vehicles....shouldn't there be a concern about "fuel introduction by wire" on a diesel engine?

 

[downzero]

...shouldn't there be a concern about "fuel introduction by wire" on a diesel engine?

No, because you're at the mercy of the pump either way, whether it's an electric servo that demands more fuel or a cable. If the pump malfunctions, it's not going to matter either way. Whether it's drive by wire or entirely mechanical, there's no throttle to slam closed and choke the engine of air, regardless of the method by which the pump operates.

A gasoline engine isn't the same. If you take your foot off the accelerator and the throttle slams closed, the concept of a runaway vehicle is a done deal. I'm pretty sure that whatever throttle position input is there or no matter what the injectors are doing, it's just going to smoke black, sputter, and die. With the throttle closed, there's not going to be any acceleration. This is more true than ever with fuel injected vehicles, because the throttle literally closes on most of them, relying on a bypass to achieve idle. There's just no practical way that such an engine can run away IF the mechanical cable and springs allow the throttle to slam closed.

 

[gunowner930]

maybe i'm missing something in this whole ordeal but if your throttle is stuck wide open on your toyota couldn't you just put in neutral?

 

[downzero]

maybe i'm missing something in this whole ordeal but if your throttle is stuck wide open on your toyota couldn't you just put in neutral?

Yes and no. If you had a manual, yes. With an auto, that's electronic, too, so whether it works or not depends on the computer.

Best bet, if you ask me....is to shut the engine off completely if it takes off like that.

 

[Gamez235]

I sure hope they never use these types of systems for airplanes. Can you imagine how ineffective and dangerous airplanes like the F-16 would be if they used fly by wire controls?

Actually F-16's do use fly by wire controls...

 

[Joe Williams]

Actually F-16's do use fly by wire controls...

I'm well aware of that.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

I sure hope they never use these types of systems for airplanes. Can you imagine how ineffective and dangerous airplanes like the F-16 would be if they used fly by wire controls?

There were good reasons, I'm sure, for designing aircraft with fly-by-wire controls. As a pilot, however, I'm not terribly comfortable with flight controls which don't have some element of backup in case the FBW system fails. For years I resisted flying helicopters whose flight control systems couldn't be muscled by hand if the hydraulics failed. I finally gave in (to get that second engine) and never had a problem, but I could never shake that nightmare of control lockup and nothing to do but bend the cyclic out of shape while heading uncontrollably for the ground.

 

[ATOMonkey]

No, because you're at the mercy of the pump either way, whether it's an electric servo that demands more fuel or a cable. If the pump malfunctions, it's not going to matter either way. Whether it's drive by wire or entirely mechanical, there's no throttle to slam closed and choke the engine of air, regardless of the method by which the pump operates.

A gasoline engine isn't the same. If you take your foot off the accelerator and the throttle slams closed, the concept of a runaway vehicle is a done deal. I'm pretty sure that whatever throttle position input is there or no matter what the injectors are doing, it's just going to smoke black, sputter, and die. With the throttle closed, there's not going to be any acceleration. This is more true than ever with fuel injected vehicles, because the throttle literally closes on most of them, relying on a bypass to achieve idle. There's just no practical way that such an engine can run away IF the mechanical cable and springs allow the throttle to slam closed.

Yes, that's all mostly true, but drive by wire is not an inherrently dangerous way to operate an engine. Also, pedal sensors have been around since the '80s. So, the reliability is fairly well documented.

Also, mechanical throttles have been known to stick open on carbs and throttle bodies alike if they build up with gunk or if the mechanism is over extended and binds. It happens.

It probably isn't the cause here, but tin whiskers are a pretty neat phenomenon that actually took down a telecomm satellite. It's good reading anyway.

I think most of the toyota things are user error, but I wouldn't rule out electronic error.

At any rate, shutting the engine off is still good idea, unless the computer bypasses that as well. If that's the case, aim for something soft.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

No, because you're at the mercy of the pump either way, whether it's an electric servo that demands more fuel or a cable. If the pump malfunctions, it's not going to matter either way. Whether it's drive by wire or entirely mechanical, there's no throttle to slam closed and choke the engine of air, regardless of the method by which the pump operates.

A gasoline engine isn't the same. If you take your foot off the accelerator and the throttle slams closed, the concept of a runaway vehicle is a done deal. I'm pretty sure that whatever throttle position input is there or no matter what the injectors are doing, it's just going to smoke black, sputter, and die. With the throttle closed, there's not going to be any acceleration. This is more true than ever with fuel injected vehicles, because the throttle literally closes on most of them, relying on a bypass to achieve idle. There's just no practical way that such an engine can run away IF the mechanical cable and springs allow the throttle to slam closed.

I believe you are incorrect in your description of the diesel engine. Once ignition is achieved, the combustion cycle continues as long as fuel is introduced into the cylinders. A gasoline engine needs electricity to induce combustion in the cylinders and removing the spark, fuel, or oxygen from the system will cause it to shut down. With the diesel, you have to either shut off the fuel or shut off the O2. Our military diesels had what was essentially a "throttle cut-off" to shut them down.