Mitch is hesitating on SB-1....

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  • LordTio3

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    May 12, 2010
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    Let us also not forget what specific police action started this case law to begin with. It, as it happens, was not a no-knock search warrant. The matter on the table is the police officers' ability to use force to enter a domicile and apprehend a citizen Upon Their Own Discretion.

    I understand that, by definition, we grant police officers a certain level of discretionary power to make quick and difficult decisions that ultimately, and idealistically, keep us all safer as a society.

    ...However...

    what this case law does is multiply the effective use of that discretionary force and protect that use by specifying any resistance as illegal, regardless of whether or not it may or may not be justified. Even if the entry was unlawful. Even if the "Probable Cause" or "Reasonable Suspicion of Imminent Danger" was completely fabricated or inarticulable and it is later proved that the officer acted in a completely unprofessional and dangerous fashion, the citizen who justly and reasonably resisted his unlawful entry is thus STILL, under current case law, guilty of felonious conduct and will be sentenced to jailtime.

    SB1 just rights this wrong. It does little more than that. The current case law allocates, what is definitially, too much discretionary authority to the police regarding private property and personal protection laws in this state. What it does is ensures that if it is discovered that the officer/s used inarticulabe, unreasonable, or non-existent factors in order to justify forceably entering a domicile; whose wrongdoing is clearly apparent to the occupant who chooses to resist said entry, that the citizen resisting is in fact offered protection under the law.

    ~LT
     

    Stschil

    Grandmaster
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    Aug 24, 2010
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    At the edge of sanit
    Let us also not forget what specific police action started this case law to begin with. It, as it happens, was not a no-knock search warrant. The matter on the table is the police officers' ability to use force to enter a domicile and apprehend a citizen Upon Their Own Discretion.

    I understand that, by definition, we grant police officers a certain level of discretionary power to make quick and difficult decisions that ultimately, and idealistically, keep us all safer as a society.

    ...However...

    what this case law does is multiply the effective use of that discretionary force and protect that use by specifying any resistance as illegal, regardless of whether or not it may or may not be justified. Even if the entry was unlawful. Even if the "Probable Cause" or "Reasonable Suspicion of Imminent Danger" was completely fabricated or inarticulable and it is later proved that the officer acted in a completely unprofessional and dangerous fashion, the citizen who justly and reasonably resisted his unlawful entry is thus STILL, under current case law, guilty of felonious conduct and will be sentenced to jailtime.

    SB1 just rights this wrong. It does little more than that. The current case law allocates, what is definitially, too much discretionary authority to the police regarding private property and personal protection laws in this state. What it does is ensures that if it is discovered that the officer/s used inarticulabe, unreasonable, or non-existent factors in order to justify forceably entering a domicile; whose wrongdoing is clearly apparent to the occupant who chooses to resist said entry, that the citizen resisting is in fact offered protection under the law.

    ~LT

    The Barnes judgment had nothing to do with No-Knock Warrants.
    http://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/pdf/05121101shd.pdf

    The police officers responded to a 911 Domestic Violence call. Barnes physically assaulted officers attempting to ascertain the health/injury/welfare status of Mrs Barnes, who had made the call.
    The officers did nothing wrong, it was the Court that overstepped.

    Now that said, this bill does not change the fact that, even though it may add a positive legal defense to the citizenry for resisting Law Enforcement, these case will still take the Courts Decisions to make remedies. Which really leaves us back to where we were prior to and after the Barnes ruling.
     

    thebishopp

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    Nov 26, 2010
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    What I find interesting is the arguments used against this bill.

    So far the main ones are:

    1. If this law passes people will start killing cops all the time. - reminds me of the rhetoric used to promote anti-gun legislation as well as oppose pro gun laws. If I had a nickel for everytime an anti-gunner claimed that the passing of a more liberal self defense law or "shall issue" gun permit/license would result in massive deaths and some kind of reference to the "old west" and people killing each other in the streets...

    2. The public or at least the ones law enforcement deals with on a regular basis are a bunch of idiots and that they will think, despite the fact that the law doesn't say it, that they can now shoot cops legally.... which of course leads into argument number 1.

    3. It's not a violation of our 4th Amendment because one can always "file a complaint" after the fact (if you survive of course and if they don't fabricate some kind of story or trump up some kind of charge to cya themselves). Gotta love it when someone is so flippant about what OTHER people have to go as well as playing fast and loose with the tax payer money (if payouts have to be made).

    4. and of course the one about how it risks non-leo lives because "how on earth is a homeowner supposed to decided instantly if the police are entering lawfully or unlawfully!?".
     
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    VERT

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    Jan 4, 2009
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    Seymour
    Unfortunately, this is going to be challenged (on the street).

    Oh I don't think anything will change. Just politics as usual, nothing to see here.

    There will probably be some procedural changes for law enforcement. Officer safety should not have to be compromised in any way. Hopefully there will not be any reactionary or over reaction in behavior.

    Butt head criminals will continue to be butt head criminals. They are a justifiable threat and will be dealt with appropriately.

    My door is not hardened against SWAT teams and I will accept the use of flash bangs as being used by legitimate police action. Don't worry I won't shoot back. But I will expect you to replace my door if you have the wrong address.:D
     

    beararms1776

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    Jul 5, 2010
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    INGO
    I think the bill will help protect LE and innocent people from ones that may want to use LE in a ficticious manner to kick in doors of the wrong party.
    I don't know about past or out of State Gov's., but Daniels has got to be one of the greatest in the History of the U.S. and Indiana.
     

    VERT

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    Jan 4, 2009
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    It was... but obviously legal recourse has fallen out of favor.

    How so? Seems like this bill allows for legal recourse. If we the people truly had no right to ever resist a public servant, then we could be charged with a crime with absolutely no recourse. At least now we can allow the courts to work.
     

    Kutnupe14

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    Jan 13, 2011
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    I don't understand.:dunno:

    Surely you are not saying what I think you are saying. What do you mean by this?

    The option of legal recourse or legal physical resistance are both on the table. Given how vocal people have been concerning SB1, I would assume the latter would be the most desired option employed.
     
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