MSG or Co-Op (commune)

[oldfb]

With the MSG concept isn't it ironic that many of us would sooner burn and salt our fields than turn them over for communism or socialism.

However during a SHTF event the essence of a successful MSG will involve everyone pulling together and sharing labor, supplies, security and land for survival which is considered a Co-OP or commune.

Why will we find this so easy then but now we cannot all pull together in our workforce and communities to stop the insanity that we face daily?

Is it because we get to choose who we work with for the common good?

I just was wondering so I thought I would get a different oppinion again.

 

[Big John]

There is a difference between my hard work going to pay/benefit some lazy do nothing and my hard work going to benefit a group of people I know well and without whom I could not make it. It will be a you don't work/offer something productive you don't eat.

Unlike our current Nanny state or either of the two you mentioned where you are rewarded for being worthless and punished for being a productive member.

 

[oldfb]

There is a difference between my hard work going to pay/benefit some lazy do nothing and my hard work going to benefit a group of people I know well and without whom I could not make it. It will be a you don't work/offer something productive you don't eat.

Unlike our current Nanny state or either of the two you mentioned where you are rewarded for being worthless and punished for being a productive member.

Not trying to attack you John just questioning how well us that prep have thought this out.

Who defines productive? Who decides the value of the "productivity"?

Do all share equal or do we deem the cooks less productive than the high risk security or scavenger parties?

If a productive member is injured or ill for long term do they eat?

When and how do we decide when free market rule is rebirthed?

How long before people with skills decide that the less skilled aren't productive enough and no longer entitled to a fair share?

What if your loved one, child or wife are judged lazy, unproductive or just being rewarded for their ineptness?

MSG is a great idea but with any organization or group there will be rules and disharmony that should be adressed now rather than before.

Honestly most of us that support a more conservative life will find it hard to adjust. Face it most of us will not readily join a homeowners association or go live in a Co-Op right now because them people are kooks and way to controlling.
Yet we expect a MSG to be our fall back once we get over the bugout bag fever the new preppers go through.

Just a few thoughts for now but wouldn't it be better to start gearing our lives towards learning the social graces needed for a MSG lifestyle instead of waiting for all hell to break loose?

 

[Go Devil]

...Yet we expect a MSG to be our fall back ...
...learning the social graces needed for a MSG lifestyle...

Having been born into a commune, I am prepared to tell you that Socialism holds no footing among people that believe in personal responsibility and reason.

Mutual Support is based upon a peer situation of value and respect, not a sucking situation promoting weakness.

Like it or not, the natural order of life is every man for himself.

Laziness and greed are bedfellows in communism.

 

[techres]

Zombies at the walls is one heck of an incentive!

Short of that each group will have difficulties and will be VERY hard but will still have a better shot than those alone.

As for why we can't do the same now? Some do already and disappear off of the radar. Others of us are willing to work and sacrifice and trust those we can see with our own eyes but are not trusting with those who will dictate from afar.

I will say though, that you are on something here. I would add the corollary person - the one who really thinks the cities will burn but he will be able to live alone on his farm and stay the quiet hermit, just him and his gun.

Neither has any chance in reality come SHTF, but are a better place to begin from than say the unprepared, unarmed city dwellers who cannot understand what to do now that 911 is no longer available.

As for the exalted visions we have of ourselves and the ideal we would like to be and how that fails in the real world day after day - yeah the rugged, uncompromising individual is just as awkward now as it will be in SHTF. At the same time, in both places at least the individual who is stern and rooted will be less likely to be carried up and off the ground to flow in a stream of promises only to be smashed against the rocks of reality.

I do really like the original thought. I will be following the conversation.

 

[oldfb]

Learning how to work for a common goal is a huge part of the MSG. We need to flesh out rules and order for them to succeed and survive. Think of the oarsmen in an olympic team,
if every teammate isn't perfectly in sync they never achieve the speed to win. Same with us and our MSG.

We must find our rythym and order now in practice if we ever hope to succeed in disaster.

I am in no way advocating (suggesting)that communism or socialism is the enlightened path. Both are pipedreams used as a tool to control the masses while allowing the top elite to feed off of the people.

I find myself in an interesting position since I am what many would deem part of the problem since I am disabled , fat and unproductive by their definition.

Those that know me truly see the truth. I am a man making the best out of a horrible situation for his family.

That being said I guess I hold stock in what I consider the "social graces" which to me represent the ability to coexisit in relative harmony and peace with all but the truly evil, abrasive or unwashed of the masses.

I don't know if I am weak because I refuse to "throw down" over most things which send many others into rabid fits of rage.

I consider myself a peacemaker as well as a sheepdog but my days of barking, running and struggling at the end of my lead or fence are over.

I am that big goofy looking dog that you can pull his ears, ride his back and trust not to tear your sofa apart. Just don't come into my house with ill will and you will never see the teeth.

I use most of my remaining barks to help the younger dogs live and learn to be wiser dogs.

So again in SHTF MSG land who makes the rules. What are the standards for productivity and if a member is incapacitated by accident, health or attack is he going to eat or starve in your MSG's? Is there a provision for that concept in your plans. Do you all just vote crippled ole elmer off the watering hole?

 

[oldfb]

Having been born into a commune, I am prepared to tell you that Socialism holds no footing among people that believe in personal responsibility and reason.

Mutual Support is based upon a peer situation of value and respect, not a sucking situation promoting weakness.

Like it or not, the natural order of life is every man for himself.

Laziness and greed are bedfellows in communism.

Every man for himself is a mental state that is fostered by predatory tendancies, malcontents and tyranny.

In the wild there are numerous reported events of the herd or group defending, circling and protecting the young or weak.
Even recorded accounts of the group going back to rescue a lost herd member.

Small unit tactics foster a no one left behind brotherhood.

So I discount that portion of your statement with new evidence.

While the ism is bad because of the greed and elimination of incentives I do believe that it may actually be that part of those societies or groups that treats each member as valued which promotes doctors for instance to become doctors for medicine and not profit. Since monetarily there is no incentive to strive for more.

In our MSG's I believe members quickly will gravitate to chores they are most suited to. People will trade kp for sentry duty or laundry and how soon after will the people with more physical or hazardous jobs start demanding more rations. The scavengers will demand more of the loot. When does the MSG transition to a working society. Placing value on individual needs vs the common good will test us to the limits especially if we are all armed to the teeth.

Then do we disarm the visitors or the malcontents?

These are serious parts of our plan to discuss now. Try setting up a grievance process now .

 

[ThrottleJockey]

George Orwell said it best. "All animals are equal, some are just more equal than others". The cream will rise to the top and the lessers shall be dependents and do as they are told. There will always be an "alpha" and a pecking order will always develop in every group. It does bother me though, that there really is no sense of social responsibility any longer. For example, if your next door neighbor lost their job and their house was being foreclosed on, would you do as was done by so many in the late '20s early '30s? Would you offer your basement/spare room to their family while they attempt to regain their footing? Then the next question, would they take advantage of it if you did or would they make every effort to get things together and move on?

 

[Cpt Caveman]

Personal responsibility is the key here. Without it a MSG is a bad road for the hard working feller but easy for the slacker. If one keeps folks honest and makes them be responsible for their actions or inaction then each individual is personally responsible for his or her own part of the work and it will get done. Getting the right epolpe would be THE most important thing. One bad apple could make the whole thing a shambles.
Got no practical experience though as I have family all around me that already is and will be my "support group" if things go south on us.

 

[4sarge]

George Orwell said it best. "All animals are equal, some are just more equal than others". The cream will rise to the top and the lessers shall be dependents and do as they are told. There will always be an "alpha" and a pecking order will always develop in every group. It does bother me though, that there really is no sense of social responsibility any longer. For example, if your next door neighbor lost their job and their house was being foreclosed on, would you do as was done by so many in the late '20s early '30s? Would you offer your basement/spare room to their family while they attempt to regain their footing? Then the next question, would they take advantage of it if you did or would they make every effort to get things together and move on?

But there's no reason why we should abdicate our foundational principles because certain groups don't believe in them. You know, no majority should surrender its deeply held beliefs to those who don't believe in anything.

Never Give Up and Never Surrender

 

[spartan933]

I am going to suggest going with a commune. If my girlfriend agrees, I plan on surviving with a group of hot females and working together to repopulate the earth.

 

[inxs]

A mutual support group is not uncommon now. They are generally called partnerships and exist everywhere from marriage to business. There is no need to abdicate from the status of individual be a functional part of one. They can be formed or dissolved at will, and are usually extremely efficient.

I've been practicing with a wife, some kids, some farmers, some business people, and many others for years. I don't see any reason to make it difficult.

 

[Go Devil]

Every man for himself is a mental state that is fostered by predatory tendancies, malcontents and tyranny.

Not a mental state, but a cornerstone of human nature.

In the wild there are numerous reported events of the herd or group defending, circling and protecting the young or weak.
Even recorded accounts of the group going back to rescue a lost herd member.

Herd = Family

Small unit tactics foster a no one left behind brotherhood.

SUT's foster Mission Completion.

So I discount that portion of your statement with new evidence.

With human behavior, there is nothing new under the sun.

While the ism is bad because of the greed and elimination of incentives I do believe that it may actually be that part of those societies or groups that treats each member as valued which promotes doctors for instance to become doctors for medicine and not profit. Since monetarily there is no incentive to strive for more.

Man as well as every other life form on this planet is genetically wired to "strive for more"; without that penchant said forms will cease to propigate. Attempts of another to harness said drive is infringement and if fostered leads to enslavement.

In our MSG's I believe members quickly will gravitate to chores they are most suited to. People will trade kp for sentry duty or laundry and how soon after will the people with more physical or hazardous jobs start demanding more rations. The scavengers will demand more of the loot. When does the MSG transition to a working society. Placing value on individual needs vs the common good will test us to the limits especially if we are all armed to the teeth.

What is your definition of a working society?

"For the common good" has been used to destroy our nations founding principles.


Then do we disarm the visitors or the malcontents?

Visitors and Malcontents are transients and are more than welcome to move on down the road.


These are serious parts of our plan to discuss now. Try setting up a grievance process now .

Don't forget to visit you union rep for your ration card.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

I've always loved the idea of a commune , everyone living peacefully and working together for the common good .

I've not actually done any research on them but I think they've all fell apart for one reason or another , I'm sure human nature played some part in that .

 

[Go Devil]

I've always loved the idea of a commune , everyone living peacefully and working together for the common good .

I've not actually done any research on them but I think they've all fell apart for one reason or another , I'm sure human nature played some part in that .

Half the people don't like to work and the other half will eventually refuse to work for the previous group.

Been there, done that.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

Half the people don't like to work and the other half will eventually refuse to work for the previous group.

Been there, done that.

I assume the "work" portion of it falls into various categories right , whether it's upkeep on the shelter , farming , cooking or soap making ?

So wouldn't everyone be assigned a detail according to his abilities ?

Why couldn't the "lazy" ones be kicked out ?

 

[Go Devil]

I assume the "work" portion of it falls into various categories right , whether it's upkeep on the shelter , farming , cooking or soap making ?

So wouldn't everyone be assigned a detail according to his abilities ?

Why couldn't the "lazy" ones be kicked out ?

The work portion did fall into categories and there were assignments according to abilities, education, gender, health, and age.

There are not enough feet to kick laziness out of human nature; people need to be responsible for themselves, otherwise they are a drain on their neighbor.

The problem with this form of lifestyle is the hard cold fact that humans are not hive-like drones; peoples views, principles, health (mental and physical), and abilities change in response to interaction with their environment. You cannot stop them from evolving or devolving.

A core group or pioneers can attain such a utopia for a short span of time, but at some point the group will need to grow in number and at that point, ideals, perspective, and opinion will move beyond the original intent and ability.

The Shakers had a good run, but where are they now?

Show me one communal experiment that is thriving and I will show you thousands that have failed.

There is one thing in man that you can't stamp out and that is weakness for gain; that weakness is not a sin, but is is the quality in you that makes you step out of bed every morning, kiss your wife and kids goodby, and wear your hands away all day long so your children will have the opportinity to better themselves; if you try anything other than this, you are attempting to hold back the sea and fight the glory of nature.

Socialism and Communism need to be exposed as the sin against man that they are, bled out, and cast upon the field of waste to be devoured by their own kind.

 

[ATF Consumer]

I know I all need to know about MSG's by watching all of the Mad Max movies.

 

[Go Devil]

A mutual support group is not uncommon now. They are generally called partnerships and exist everywhere from marriage to business. There is no need to abdicate from the status of individual be a functional part of one. They can be formed or dissolved at will, and are usually extremely efficient.

I've been practicing with a wife, some kids, some farmers, some business people, and many others for years. I don't see any reason to make it difficult.

It is as simple as that.

 

[Go Devil]

I know I all need to know about MSG's by watching all of the Mad Max movies.

So how are those assless chaps working for you while you cruise around on the B**ch-seat of your man's bike?