NATO-Spec 9x19: "+P" or Not?

[Claddagh]

While rearranging some of the shelves in our basement this AM I ran across three GI ammo cans with no labels. As I usually mark all of these with a caliber label, I opened them to see what was inside.

One is filled with boxes of Federal-made M882 ball, headstamped "FC - 96". I did some web seaching for specs and contradictory results. Some declaring that this load qualifies as a +P load and others saying it's not. As neither of my two present 9x19 pistols is rated for the regular use of +P ammo, you can see why this could be a matter of concern.

Another is filled with S&B 123 gr. ball, also labeled as being NATO spec, but with no referrence number as to which set of specs that might be.

The last was a happy surprise, in that it's full of Federal 124 gr. Nyclad HPs. I'd thought that I'd gotten down to my last 300 rds of this and had been hoarding that for CCW/HD duty.

Can anybody help me get clear on whether or not I should be cautious about using the NATO spec stuff in my old steel framed full-sized Witness and/or my beloved old Star M43 Firestar? With 9x19 so expensive and hard to come by right now, I may have to start using some of it to practice with.

Any and all info much appreciated!

 

[Disposable Heart]

The stuff I've fired, DEFINITELY not. About 1050-1100 FPS chronoed out of my Beretta 92... I then fired a test string of American Eagle 124 gr FMJ, same gun, same velo and it's not +P or nothing.

People buy that NATO stuff and think it's going to crack their guns up or it's super special, it's really not. For long term storage or ammo that's going into horrific environments (wet, cold, etc...), it's great: Sealed primers, crimped primers in the very low chance of primer backout, etc... You are perfectly fine firing it in your older guns.

 

[Claddagh]

Many thanks, Disposable Heart. Trying to sort out the wheat from the chaff on the ol' interwebz gets tougher every day, for me anyway. Thought I recalled something from back when the M9 was first adopted about slides and/or frames cracking from extended use with "hot" NATO ammo, which is what got me to digging around on Google et al.

Compounding the problem was that I don't recall when I bought any of this stuff. It has to have been at least 10 or 12 years ago, back when I bought a good deal of ammo (mostly 9x19, 7.62x39 and surplus 7.62x51) I didn't especially need whenever somebody was running a deal on it just because it was cheaper to do that than it was to reload it. It's been stored in sealed GI ammo cans in my basement with a couple of packets of silica gel in each can ever since.

I guess that I must've figured that it might come in handy sometime. Looks as if it finally will.

 

[Disposable Heart]

What you usually hear about is the M9 locking blocks cracking. What they don't tell you is that the SEALS doing said block cracking were using IMI subgun ammo, which is +P+++holycrap that's hot++++.

 

[warthog]

I have a case of that Subgun stuff. It really is hot. Not for pistols, any pistol.

Works great in a subgun though.

(not for sale or trade unless you really have something special so don't ask)

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

What you usually hear about is the M9 locking blocks cracking. What they don't tell you is that the SEALS doing said block cracking were using IMI subgun ammo, which is +P+++holycrap that's hot++++.

Not necessarily the case of JUST using sub-gun ammo.

My nephew is currently an armorer for the USMC. When we were all together around Christmastime, he mentioned that within the previous month, they'd had three M9s come in with broken locking blocks. These were high-use pistols...

The mileage the gun has seen with regular pressure ammo can certainly cause issues, too. (But 1 Sub-gun round probably = 20 or so rounds worth of regular ammo. Yes, that's a wholly made up number)

 

[Claddagh]

I used to buy quite a bit of the "Hansen" brand, IMI-made 9x19 and .45 ACP ammo 'way back when. Can't recall having any issues with it. The 9x19 was available in, IIRC, both 115 and 124 gr. FMJ loadings. I bought both, as my Witness' sights are regulated for standard pressure 115 gr. ammo (at least with my eyes and hold) and the little Star's do best with 124 gr. loads. I went through quite a bit of both, but the 115 gr. was usually easier to get locally. IIRC, they seemed a bit 'snappier' than some US-made commercial ball, but only slightly so. I chalked that up to the differences between SAAMI and European commercial specs for the 9x19 and didn't worry about it much. Don't recall if any of it was labeled as being 'NATO' spec though.

Thanks for clearing up the M9 thing for me. It's been a quarter century (?!) or more since those rumors were going around and I apparently either misremembered or just plain got the scuttlebutt wrong.

Weather permitting, I'll go to the club and run a box each of the Federal M882 and the S&B through my Witness, just for my own peace of mind. I've been running it with a very slightly stronger than stock recoil spring anyway (15 lb Wolff vs. 14 lb factory-spec) because it uses the same Wolff spring length and diameter as my CZ 97B does and I had one on-hand when a change was due. (Note to self: Need to rummage through my parts drawers and see if I've got new replacements in there for the little Star. It's been a goodly while since they were last refreshed, come to think of it.)

 

[cosermann]

I don't think 9 mm NATO is +p, based on threads similar to below.

Edit: A few other threads:
http://hunting.about.com/od/ammo/f/9mmluger9mmpara.htm
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_20/99093_9mm_Luger_vs__9mm_NATO.html
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=271815
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-141373.html
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=5&f=4&t=49410

However, I've not had an easy time finding original source material for this.

In fact, take a look at this SAMMI doc: http://www.saami.org/specifications...1-Unsafe_Arms_and_Ammunition_Combinations.pdf

If you scroll down to 9mm (page 3), it actually says NOT to use 9 mm NATO ammunition in a handgun chambered for 9mm Luger (Parabellum). That's really got me scratching my head. Say, what?

Edit yet again: Ok, I did find the following after searching for "STANAG 4090" (you have to know where to look):

http://www.scribd.com/doc/85843207/NATO-Stanag-4090-Ed-2-Small-Arms-Ammunition-9-mm-Parabellum-1982
http://www.filestube.com/7eBK725Gghjbv4ffrxTOpr

What do you think based on those NATO specs?

 

[Claddagh]

Went through the links cosermann provided (thank you!). The majority of the data would suggest to me that the NATO/STANAG max pressure specs are sort of in between the SAAMI 'standard' and their +P figures. Being a 'suspenders and belt' kind of person, I may opt go up another notch on my recoil springs and watch real closely for any signs of unusual wear or battering. Both pistols have relatively high round counts on them, mostly because I've had them for such a long time. I bought the Star in 1993 and the Witness in 1996.

One rather curious contradiction in the M882 spec data I noticed was that while one stated the projectile weight as 112 gr., another listed it as 124 gr.. Can't help but wonder about where that might be coming from, although I suppose that so long as the max pressures remain equivalent the point would be essentially moot except for possible POA/POI differences at ranges of 25M and up.

Whatever the case, it looks as if I'll be shopping for a conversion kit to start reloading 9x19 on my Dillon SDB soon.