NWI INGO MEET & SHOOT - SAT 28 MAY 2011

[geronimojoe85]

Hear that jediagh Winimac sucks!!!

 

[jedi]

You "can get away" with firing more than one AR at the firing line at all the other DNR Ranges as long as there is a shooting position and a target.

Correct as long as you have a 1 second delay between the shots from what I have read on here. Yesterday we did not have a 1 second delay. We fired as fast as we could (but no bump firing).

Kingsbury has more complete coverage over all the shooting positions except for the shotgun area.

It's also a WHOLE $4 which I know is not a lot but it's an additional expense on top of all the others already for the day. Plus while I can't confirm this yet would we get to have the entire range to us like we tend to at Winamac (not becuase we have Joe with us but because Winamac is not used that much.)

Hear that jediagh Winimac sucks!!!

Yes Joe I'm beginning to c that. But if WD and the rest would give me just 1.2 million I'm sure I can turn the Griffith Golf Course into "Da Griffith Run Range".


FYI Get your AARs in because I'm going to have the MODs close this on Tuesday.

 

[Wild Deuce]

Winamac doesn't suck. If it was easier to get to, it might rate better in my book. It's still the biggest pain to get to and I don't think it's worth the extra drive time. I have used all four ranges so I base my opinion on that.

Jediagh, I know you have never been to Kingsbury. Your chance to give it a try is coming up. Deb's Gun Range is hosting an Outdoor Range Day at Kingsbury DNR on June 12. The event is almost identical to your INGO Meet & Shoot (including the food and gun sharing). Come on out and see if it really sucks as much as you've been told. I'll even cover those $4 for you and throw in a box of shells and clays for the shotgun competition as well as one box of rounds for my M14SA and one box for my Savage FP110.

About rapid fire, the 1 second rule is there to protect you and the DNR. They have that requirement to ensure aimed fire. It will only take one round to leave the range and strike someone for two lives (shooter and victim) to be ruined and the DNR range to go away. Remember, your Meet & Shoot is an open event. How do you know everyone's level of competence? I know I sound like I'm raining on your parade. Sorry about that but I've met you and don't want to see you opening up yourself to any liability (you have a beautiful family). I've mentioned this to you before. Your name is pretty much tied up with this event. I would, at the very least, refrain from posting about breaking a posted rule.

... getting off my high horse. Don't let me get you down. You're doing a good thing by introducing non-shooters to our sport and providing a meeting place for the rest. You're efforts are top notch.

....It's also a WHOLE $4 which I know is not a lot but it's an additional expense on top of all the others already for the day. Plus while I can't confirm this yet would we get to have the entire range to us like we tend to at Winamac (not becuase we have Joe with us but because Winamac is not used that much.)....

I will guarantee that, at today's prices, you spent more than $4 extra driving to Winamac from Griffith than you would have going to Kingsbury.

Shooting positions are first come first served at all the DNR ranges (including Winamac).

 

[groovatron]

What part sucks?

guarantee[/I] that, at today's prices, you spent more than $4 extra driving to Winamac from Griffith than you would have going to Kingsbury.

Shooting positions are first come first served at all the DNR ranges (including Winamac).

1. You have to wear hearing and eye protection at all times while inside the gate......which makes sense since it's practically an indoor range and is quite cramped.

2. Some of the RO's have tried to tell me that I can't pick up range brass and accused me of stealing "their" brass.

3. There is a break every 7 minutes for hanging targets.......this is seriously annoying if you are trying to take your time.

4. The "1 second" rule is lame.

5. There are limited places to shoot from with limited shooting positions allowed.

6. The target stands are tiny.

7. You can't grill out.

8. A RO's voice on a bullhorn is annoying every 5 minutes.

9. Limited space to socialize.



What posted rules were broke? I must have missed that.


I have been to Kingsbury several dozen times. It's a great place to take a new shooter or shoot some trap, but an awful place for a meet and greet.

Also, I think the mention of liability and the like is a bit hasty. Every individual is responsible for signing a liability waiver when using the Winimac range. I don't think Jediah has anything to worry about.

 

[Wild Deuce]

1. You have to wear hearing and eye protection at all times while inside the gate......which makes sense since it's practically an indoor range and is quite cramped.

... hearing and eye protection is a problem??? cramped???

2. Some of the RO's have tried to tell me that I can't pick up range brass and accused me of stealing "their" brass.

I've never had that problem so that doesn't sound range specific. I pick up all my brass and even take a lot of what is in the buckets if the caliber interests me. No one has ever said a word and there are no posted prohibitions that I have seen.

3. There is a break every 7 minutes for hanging targets.......this is seriously annoying if you are trying to take your time.

Agreed. I've also been there when there's only been two other shooters and we were turned loose to manage ourselves .... NOT LIKELY though with a Meet & Shoot on the weekend.

4. The "1 second" rule is lame.

So is stopping at red lights ... already explained.

5. There are limited places to shoot from with limited shooting positions allowed.

??? What range are we talking about here? There are the same number if not 1 or 2 more positions available at the 25 yard line at Kingsbury than Winamac. As already stated, I've never had an issue shooting standing, kneeling, sitting or prone.

6. The target stands are tiny.

I guess if you are doing rapid fire you would need stands that cover the whole berm. Seriously, how big of a stand does a shooter need? "Aim small. Miss small."

7. You can't grill out.

Come out for Deb's Outdoor Range Day on June 12th. You'll see you are wrong.

8. A RO's voice on a bullhorn is annoying every 5 minutes.

100% AGREE

9. Limited space to socialize.

Again, come out on June 12th. You'll see otherwise.

What posted rules were broke? I must have missed that.

You did. They are clearly posted at the same place where you pick up your liability waiver card as well as the printed range rule sheet. It states no rapid fire allowed. Unless the rules have changed or they've been removed ... they were there last fall.

I have been to Kingsbury several dozen times. It's a great place to take a new shooter or shoot some trap, but an awful place for a meet and greet.

This was a Meet & Shoot.

Also, I think the mention of liability and the like is a bit hasty. Every individual is responsible for signing a liability waiver when using the Winimac range. I don't think Jediah has anything to worry about.

The Liability Waiver is in case you get injured. It says you can not sue or hold responsible the State of Indiana or DNR if you get injured. It does not absolve you if you cause the injury or keep you from being prosecuted or sued because of criminal or negligent behavior. A farmer working his field a mile downrange probably doesn't have one of these signed cards in his wallet. He can sue anyone he wants if he gets injured. His lawyer will discover the nature of the event. By virtue of taking the lead (a fact easily discovered by viewing this online forum) in organizing this event, any slick lawyer would surely label Jediagh as an organizer of the NWI Meet & Greet. He would then be asked about safety precautions, training, etc. Even if Farmer Brown doesn't have a leg to stand on, the consequences of mounting a legal defense would have a long lasting impact on Jediagh's financial future.

On a side note, was there a designated safety officer for this Meet & Greet? Safety briefing/talk? If not, why not? You've had them in the past ... another discoverable fact.

 

[groovatron]

@ Wild Deuce.......

Well, it is clear that you do not like any sort of rapid fire and you feel unsafe around it. You are certainly entitled to your opinions and stance. I do many drills where double taps and "rapid fire" are necessary. If practicing for a head shot on a squirrel (which I also like to do), then Kingsbury is great. It is not, however, a place that you can practice self-defensive pistol or cqc carbine.

Winimac states that there is no automatic fire allowed. That is the closest thing to shot speed that they refer to in their rules. And they have not changed......they are the same. JP does not allow rapid fire.

As far as the grilling out at Kingsbury, I was unaware but it sounds like fun.

As Jediagh pointed out, the assistant manager watched our six lane mag dump and had no problem with it. We all stayed low on the berm and practiced normal gun safety. It is absolutely possible to shoot rapidly and safely all at the same time. If I witness an unsafe practice, I say something.........and the only person that was unsafe was a guy who was shooting his revolver into the sky.....but alas, he was not a member.......just a dude that was there.

I go to lots of shoots throughout the year......most of them are on private property and I like that freedom. Winimac is the closest thing to that for a public range. Until someone offers up their property, it's the best we've got. Of course, I'd probably try to get some MG's out their so I'm not sure you would feel safe

 

[groovatron]

.

On a side note, was there a designated safety officer for this Meet & Greet? Safety briefing/talk? If not, why not? You've had them in the past ... another discoverable fact.

Responsible people police themselves. We all need to be safety officers when we are at a range. What good would a briefing do? People are coming and going all day.

I think if you want to change things and have a Kingsbury shoot, set it up. No one is stopping you. I would go if I was free. But it won't change the fact that many of us have fun at Winimac and will more than likely continue to shoot there as well.

 

[groovatron]

Oh, and one more thing and I'll promise to go away. I find it ironic that you are concerned about safety and also pimping Deb's. That place is just plain scary in the safety department......and they allow rapid fire in a tiny basement lol.

just sayin'..........

 

[geronimojoe85]

Well guys, I'm just going to show up wherever and we'll have a good time regardless of the location.

 

[Wild Deuce]

Groovatron, I think we are closer (thinking) than our exchange would lead anyone to believe. I've taken no offense to anything you've said.

I'm certainly not opposed to rapid fire or even full auto. We did it often in the military and it happens frequently at competition (even got a chance to do it today). It's not the rapid fire that concerns me, it's usually the people doing the rapid fire. My point was that with so many shooters (usually) attending an open event, it is hard to guarantee the competency of everyone on the line. That was all.

The point of the safety officer/brief question wasn't about having one. I was addressing the fact that they (NWI Meet & Shoot) have had one in the past (complete with handouts) and don't have one now .... and how this would be a point brought up in court. I agree that responsible people police themselves but when you have brand new shooters invited, it would be a disservice not to sit them down and give them the basics.

I did have a Kingsbury shoot lined up a couple months ago but events beyond my control forced a last second cancellation on my part. I am already working on rescheduling sometime next month. There was more than enough interest and it was advertised from the start as a marksmanship "get together."

I'm only mentioning Deb's because their event is strikingly similar to the NWI Meet & Shoot and would afford Jediagh the opportunity to see that Kingsbury is not the nightmare portrayed by some when hosting this type of event. As far as Deb's being unsafe, you are 100% correct if you are referring to the clientele during business hours ... but then again, it's been a couple years since I've been in there. I would say you are wrong if you are talking about a Deb's sponsored event.

Well ... I'm done beating this horse. I hear what you're saying. Bottom line ... Did everyone have Fun? yes. Did anyone get hurt? no. Did everyone get plenty to eat? yes. Did everyone that wanted to shoot get to shoot? yes. Do we see slightly different on safety? maybe. Does the difference matter enough? not hardly.

Jediagh, sorry for pooping on your parade. I made my point and will restrain myself in the future.

Groovatron, if you ever get access to some private land, I would be very happy to join you for some extremely rapid fire ... that is, if you'll have me.

 

[groovatron]

Sounds good to me. I understand what you are saying about random people and a busy range. It was comfortable yesterday because the turnout was pretty light. It's never a bad idea to remind ourselves about the importance of safety and dangers of complacency. I respect your stance and would absolutely invite you if I got some land (which is actually in the works......shhhhh)

 

[lonehoosier]

I would just like to say thinks to everyone there. I had a great time as being my first meet and greet. I felt like I have been shooting with you guys many time and I was very welcome there. Can't what for the next one. I hope every one enjoyed the hoes. =)

 

[jedi]

Come out for Deb's Outdoor Range Day on June 12th. You'll see you are wrong.

Another one I'm going to miss.
Baby #3 is due to arrive 13 JUN that was the "thing 3" reference in my prior post. Looks like it went over your head. Thus my issues/worries over the JUN event since the last week in JUN is out due to APPLESEED & I'm not for sure when Baby #3 arrives.

On a side note, was there a designated safety officer for this Meet & Greet? Safety briefing/talk? If not, why not? You've had them in the past ... another discoverable fact.

I did have the flyers with the rules but they were not out on the tables this time around. Reason being we had no "new shooters" with us this time around (I did not bring anyone as I wanted some ME time and did not want to have to sit and baby-sit and show a new shooter stuff. That is a lot of work and by the end of the day I'm dead TIRED.

In any case the only "new" people were lonehoosier and groovatron to the meet. The rest (Joe, JeffW and Clif45) are regulars. lonehoosier only had 2 handguns and spent more time eating the "hoes" than shooting.
Actually he spent more time just getting to know us than shooting. Like he said he fit right it.

Groovatron & his boys came all "gi joe" like with ARs slung on them but no safety issues per say. Truth be told unlike last year where the lines were jam packed and we had guns all over the benches and tables behind us and just about everywhere else we could put them this time around that was just not the case.

We just did not have that many people this time so we have no issue of people on top of each other and it appears that the regulars are now bring just a few guns unliek last year where we were literally bringing everything we had so they was enough room on the racks and tables for weapons.

You need to come back to 1 this year to see that the "heydays" of last year have been toned down some what in terms of massive numbers.

Now granted I suspect JULY may be a big month since melendad, gunbunniees and buba/anut B will finally be able to come back and it will be "nice weather" but otherwise the group appears to have stabalize to around 10 - 16 per meet.

... getting off my high horse. Don't let me get you down. You're doing a good thing by introducing non-shooters to our sport and providing a meeting place for the rest. You're efforts are top notch.

Well ... I'm done beating this horse. I hear what you're saying. Bottom line ... Did everyone have Fun? yes. Did anyone get hurt? no. Did everyone get plenty to eat? yes. Did everyone that wanted to shoot get to shoot? yes. Do we see slightly different on safety? maybe. Does the difference matter enough? not hardly.

Jediagh, sorry for pooping on your parade. I made my point and will restrain myself in the future.

No worries WD you bring up valid concerns that we (NWI INGO) as a group should discuss. I don't take any of the comments to heart per say. It is hard at times to balance this since we do it at a public range.

I would just like to say thinks to everyone there. I had a great time as being my first meet and greet. I felt like I have been shooting with you guys many time and I was very welcome there. Can't what for the next one. I hope every one enjoyed the hoes. =)

BTW I did not know you also brought the table cloths with the clips!
I saw those today in the box. You did go all out! We should have used them to make the table look nicer. I did get an idea to put up a NWI INGO sign for the next meet just like the 4-H Club has a sign up as well.

I think I will spraypaint the plywood with the url for this website next time as well so the rest of the public sees it and well as they know we donated it.

 

[groovatron]

I was at the second shoot last year.......

I hope I can make the next.

GI Joe lol

 

[gunbunnies]

I'm dieing to come back out to one of these shoots. Enjoyed them immensely last year. Doc says I should be walking again in a couple more weeks, so I'm gonna try to come back out and clutter that place with firearms stuff again as soon as I can...

PS: Jasper/Pulaski, and Winamac are pretty close to the same distance from Griffith, but Kingsbury is a sizable difference in distance, plus the added fee to use the range has kept me away... I really think that Winamac is a real good match for the meet and shoot that has been conducted in the past. Jasper is a fine range and I get along with the RO's there very well but it doesn't have the same feel for the type of outing we have been having, just my .02 cents worth...

See you guys at the next one hopefully, my Saiga 12 has been screaming and wining at me for three months now to come out and play, don't you know...

 

[451_Detonics]

The point of the safety officer/brief question wasn't about having one. I was addressing the fact that they (NWI Meet & Shoot) have had one in the past (complete with handouts) and don't have one now .... and how this would be a point brought up in court. I agree that responsible people police themselves but when you have brand new shooters invited, it would be a disservice not to sit them down and give them the basics.

Last year it was quite often a zoo on the 25 yard line at Winamac, several times I did my best to get folks to thin out the firing line, keep benches clear, etc and was largely ignored. I was usually the first one there and normally didn't shoot on the 25 once folks started showing up...it got crowded enough that I was not comfortable and yes I saw many folks getting swept with guns that had the actions closed and other major safety violations. I would normally move over to shoot rifle on one of the longer ranges and when at the 25 I stayed well away from the firing line.

The two biggest things that would improve the Winamac shoots are setting a limit on the number of people shooting and on the actual firing line and keeping the benches clear. I would also like to see us pass a group rule limiting all centerfire rifles to the 50, 100, and 200 yard ranges. A centerfire rifle on the 25 yard line is rather silly. I understand we are there for fun but even so I would think any time at the range can be fun and still be used to improve one's skills...not just making noise.

 

[geronimojoe85]

I can say, since I've BEEN at the last couple shoots all in attendance have acted in a safe polite manner. The shoot that detonics is referencing was honestly a little crowded on the line, and maybe a few too many mag dumps. However people had a good time and we all went home alive. I'm tired of hearing you make it out like we were a bunch of monkeys humping a football, it wasn't like that.

 

[geronimojoe85]

Honestly, you commenting on these shoots is like me commenting on the Friday night steel threads.

 

[melensdad]

I can say, since I've BEEN at the last couple shoots all in attendance have acted in a safe polite manner. The shoot that detonics is referencing was honestly a little crowded on the line, and maybe a few too many mag dumps. However people had a good time and we all went home alive. I'm tired of hearing you make it out like we were a bunch of monkeys humping a football, it wasn't like that.

100% agreed.

We have had some too crowded shoots but it was not nearly as bad as some might make it seem. Further, many of us correct the newbies and stay right with them when they go up on the line.

As for the benches being cluttered that is one of those things that is sort of a mixed blessing:

Do we put ALL the guns on the benches with the actions open so we know they are safe, but with cluttered benches??? -- or -- do we carry guns back and forth to the line and wonder if they are safe?​

Me, I prefer to take them up and lay them out on the benches. It may be cluttered but with all the guns laid out and the actions opened we know they are safe.

 

[groovatron]

I have a real problem with this notion. It is not unreasonable to practice DT's with a centerfire carbine from 25 yds. In fact, it's quote practical for training purposes. It's the same reason that a shooter may choose to practice pistol at 7 yards. A .44 mag is every bit as loud as most rifles. I just don't understand why you equate shooting a rifle at 25yds to not honing ones skills or "just making noise." I love shooting distance, but I also love shooting from a standing position at CQC ranges. Also, many times when a noob is trying out a gun, they just want to feel how it handles and give it a run. They don't need to be trying to achieve 1"MOA at 300yds.