observations from 3 days of shooting training

[cklein6576]

who needs a slide release? On my glocks you hit the mag hard enough it releases itself. When my non shooting friends are at the range I pull that stunt to impress them. With that said i will be taking more training this fall...

 

[FishersCPA]

Thanks for the highlights... I need to find a local course...

 

[x10]

I have pictures


Flickr: JWT_D80_Shooter's Photostream

 

[Kirk Freeman]

You will fight the way you are trained. I've hit the slide release all of my life, with every pistol I've ever owned

But will you be fighting with your pistol, and not someone else's pistol?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

in addition to being the ONLY method that works if you are operating with only one hand due to an injury

Depressing the slide stop is A way to release the slide, but what happens if the pistol does not lock back and you need to rack the slide to clear a malf or reload?

Lots of ways to rack a slide one handed. Many use their holster or belt. I use my rib cage or quad since I may not be in my Captain Tactical pants when I need to do this.

 

[sig-sweet]

AR15 Dude, Good for you getting more training. I agree, get all you can get. Sounds like the same training my dept. had us go through before we could carry our AR's. It was 3 days of pure fun. I hadn't shot a black rifle that much since I was in the service ('75'..yep M16 I'm an old poo) The class we took sound a lot like yours. We do the two guns often also. The dept just had a tac pistol shoot, I had to miss it but I'll catch the next one. Keep training friend and have a ball.

 

[Agent 007]

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[kingnereli]

Thanks for sharing your training experince!



Now, I'm waiting for the 1911 fans to show up.

Present and accounted for.

2. Not all pistols are equally easy to use or reliable. At least for this "combat focus" type training, the Glocks and S&W M&Ps were clearly easier to use and more reliable. After hundreds of holster draws and reholsters, any pistol with a manual thumb safety (1911) or decocker (M9, Sig) were wearing out the users. Not to mention all the times people dangerously forgot to engage the safety or decocker. I overheard some people state they they would probably trade their Beretta/1911/FN/Ruger/etc. in on a Glock/M&P/Springfield xD based on this experience. Strangely no one brought a Springfield xD. All pistols work equally well sitting in the gun safe, but when you use them all day for three days, and put 1200 rounds through them, they start to sort themselves out.

What would you say to all of us that have used safety or decocker equipped guns in similar training without becoming overly weary? I understand you are only reporting your experiences but let's not paint with such a wide brush.

Add 5) it's the same basic manipulation as "wiping" a stovepiped case; two reps for the price of one...

Add 6)...places the recoil spring at full compression allowing for chambering with the most force available.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Wearing a badge and confronting criminals for a living, I'm probably slightly more likely to be fighting with it than say....a lawyer or something.

Sigh.

Will you be fighting with YOUR pistol and not someone else's pistol. The slide stop is not in the same location on all pistols.

Just something to be aware of once he is further down his training path.

 

[esrice]

Were you guys being filmed down there?

Is this you guys? S.W.A.T. Magazine: The TV Show! : The Down Range Blog

 

[x10]

Yes, you might see some of our mugs in January or later shows, I'm sure there will be many hours of Vid to choose from and none of us were Tom Sellick's so I don't know how much you will see of HHRP

 

[esrice]

Yes, you might see some of our mugs in January or later shows,

That's very cool!

You guys had some star power down there. . . Pincus, the guys from SWAT mag, Sheriff Campbell, Louis Awerbuck. . . . sheesh! Toss in a Pat Rogers and you'd have yourself a full house!

 

[XMil]

Were you guys being filmed down there?

Is this you guys? S.W.A.T. Magazine: The TV Show! : The Down Range Blog

I had a camera strapped to my chest for a couple of hours. They said they were testing it, so I don't know if they'll use any of the video.

 

[Agent 007]

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[U.S. Patriot]

Ah first....

wont the safety all ready be off if it has a malf occurred due to firing? on the 92 answer yes the roll is to aid the gun with get this gravity to help the round come clear of the gun but also to get a good visual of it leaving the gun in the daylight there is no difference in how you should perform this drill its seat the mag aggressive manor rip the slide with as much force as you can while brining the gun into your Area for leverage and control
key is the violence of which you attack the gun when it goes down
as for slide release proper way to use it is to hit the slide release with the support hand as the magazine is inserted while acquiring the gun for an instant shot if need be not insert grip slide stop

and by doing he overhand slide charging method your also gaining repetions and movement of the tap rack drill.

Ok let me make myself more clear. On a weapon such as a 92FS. You get the weapon with the slide locked to the rear, and the safety off. You insert the mag, and hit the mag release. You then decock, then you disengage the safety. If you forgot too, and you pull the trigger and no boom. That's why it's slap, flip, rack. You may have forgotten to take the safety off. Now some guns, are a decock only. In that situation, you do not have to worry about taking the safety off after decocking. As for 1911's why use the manual safety, when you have a tang safety? But the same would still apply. Slap, flip, rack, because again you may have forgoted to take the safety off. Aagin if you have a striker fired pistol, with no manul safety then it would just be slap, then rack in case of malfuntion. As for using your support hand to hit the slide release, while inserting a mag. That could go wrong. What if you hit the slide release before the mag in fully inserted. I think it's best the insert the mag, then slide your thumb up and hit the mag release with your off hand. Yes I have seen it happen, while qualifying.

 

[XMil]

Pics are up on the ICE site. The motley crew at day 3:

 

[Rob Pincus]

Hey guys... Thanks again for attending the course and for your thoughts/feedback. I am glad that you enjoyed the days.

Yes, the HHRP crew will be in at least one episode of the show. We actually needed to tape an episode with a Guest Host where I got to do a little teaching and the facility, students and topic worked out perfectly.

****

As for the fine motor skill issues, I will comment that those of you who are arguing that because you NEED to do some fine motor skills you should use that as a justification for doing more are missing the point. Efficiency is the goal. If there were a more-gross-motor-skill way to release the empty magazine, we would use it... but there isn't so we are forced to develop (and rely on) the skill to use the mag release button. In the case of finishing the reload, there is a more universal and reliable way to achieve the goal that isn't as fine a motor skill. Don't get wrapped up about what you "can" do... effectiveness is a given, try to figure out how you can do things more efficiently and more consistently across the spectrum of possibilities (slide forward reloads, different firearms, etc).

-RJP

 

[j706]

As for the original post, I disagree on the 1911 statement. I have been through numerous high round count pistol classes (Yavapi LTD, Boone CPD's abbreviated Gunsite course,ILEA basic course ect.) all with a 1911. Never had a single problem with manual safety's ect. An issuie with a manual safety is a training (Lack of) problem. A 1911 is a professionals weapon. Glocks and M&P's while both fine weapons are more suited for a person who cannot or will not train.

Blackhawk Serpa holsters- IMO espesially with a striker fired weapon is an accident waiting to happen. During a rapid draw when deactivating the finger lock where does the trigger finger go? Thats right...right inside the trigger guard where you do not want it. A bad design IMO. Some schools/instructors will not allow Blackhawk Serpa's on their ranges. Something to think about guys.

 

[x10]

As for the original post, I disagree on the 1911 statement. I have been through numerous high round count pistol classes (Yavapi LTD, Boone CPD's abbreviated Gunsite course,ILEA basic course ect.) all with a 1911. Never had a single problem with manual safety's ect. An issuie with a manual safety is a training (Lack of) problem. A 1911 is a professionals weapon. Glocks and M&P's while both fine weapons are more suited for a person who cannot or will not train.

Blackhawk Serpa holsters- IMO espesially with a striker fired weapon is an accident waiting to happen. During a rapid draw when deactivating the finger lock where does the trigger finger go? Thats right...right inside the trigger guard where you do not want it. A bad design IMO. Some schools/instructors will not allow Blackhawk Serpa's on their ranges. Something to think about guys.

Very stong opinions that I don't share, I don't agree with the 1911 thoughts but we won't change each others mind on that. I think your wrong in accusing people of sloth or inability when you imply they can't be trained to carry a 1911. The 1911 had it's day when it was the only good choice but that's not true anymore.

but your way off on the Serpa's "flaw" I've tried to see the "flaw" with the serpa but every time my M&P comes out of the serpa my finger is laying exactly on the frame between the slide and trigger gaurd, I dont' know if other guns have a different geometry that will put the finger lower on the gun but your statement is not true for the M&P full sized firearm.
I overheard a conversation by training experts that accounted some of the problem with the serpa AD's to the user rocking the gun forward as soon as the release was defeated therefore dragging the gun on the front of the holster instead of clearing the holster line of draw. The thought that someone can't stop pushing their finger down as the gun is coming up is fantasy. The AD's could only happen when the person put their finger where it should not have been. If you can find a video or something of a model of gun or an angle of attack that forces the finger into the trigger guard I would love to see it but with my experience with the M&P and the serpa the AD's have to be from user mistakes not an inherent design flaw.

Now I have to admit I've only had experience with the serpa and full sized M&P. I have a fobus for my SW99 and my 1911.


If you want to discuss the evils of the Serpa holster start another thread this thread is about the observations from a 3 day shooting class that people took

 

[ar15_dude]

Glad to see Rob Pincus is on INGO. He has a lot to contribute to our discussions.

On this forum, we often talk about the need to use data instead of opinion when we make a point or take a position. Our experience, based on inherent limitations, falls somewhere between data and opinion.

At the risk of starting something, I'd like to hear what Rob has seen relative to the 1911 vs. Glock/M&P debate. Throw in Sig, Beretta, H&K and Springfield while we are at it.

Rob's fuller experience makes his opinion much closer to data. In all of Rob's experience, are some pistols inherently more user friendly and combat reliable? Which ones do people consistently struggle with? Maybe rank them from best to worst?

While no amount of data will sway the truly committed, such information would be useful for giving advice to new shooters and for people with an open mind.