Old eyes are just an excuse

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • ol' Huff

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Mar 8, 2012
    567
    28
    I would like to begin with the caveat that I am an expert at nothing.

    I see a lot of people choose scopes over iron sights and when questioned about their choice in sighting system they claim “old eyes” as the reasoning. Some of those people really are old, some have corrected vision anyway, and many are younger than I am, which is saying something considering that I am holding my looks together rather well into my mid-30s. Hardly old eye territory. I posit that old eyes are really just an excuse. It’s an excuse based in the desire to simplify one of the tasks of shooting but often serves only to limit the growth of the shooter’s inherent skill, allowing them a marginal level of success but holding them back in many cases.

    It’s not that the people claiming old eyes are wrong for doing so, they are just lazy, run of the mill reprobates who have talked themselves into believing that they have to have a scope to succeed and fear the effort required to achieve without it. Two of the toughest skills to develop as a shooter are trust in your Natural Point of Aim and the need to focus on the front post. Many scope shooters don’t develop these skills early enough in their shooting and limit or slow their development because of it.

    I shoot with scopes. OH WHAT A HYPOCRITE I AM. Well….yeah, but that’s not the issue. I do shoot with scopes, and I shoot them well, often scoring better than I would with irons, but that is only because I train with irons that I am able to do it. To understand why, bear with me while I talk about why scopes work. Scopes work because they make Sight Picture easier. When shooting you must focus your eye on one of three planes, the rear sight, the front sight, or the target. Long discussions with my optometrist indicate that the natural plane of focus for the eye is an infinite one. (If you close both of your eyes and relax them in their sockets, when you open your eyes they will not be focused on anything. They are two separate inputs situated parallel to one another. Their natural, relaxed position does not allow them to intersect, therefore they are unfocused. It is with effort to observe something that we focus them. This reality can be demonstrated by the above trick. For an instant after you open your eyes they will not be focused on anything, it is only with direction from the mind that they choose something to focus on to gain their bearings.)

    So, when you open your eyes you essentially have to focus them on something. Believe it or not it is actually easier for your eyes to focus on something far away because that is closer to their relaxed state of infinity. The experienced shooter knows that he/she must focus the eyes on the front post. So an iron sight shooter must focus their mind determinedly on focusing on the front post despite two things, the eye’s natural desire to focus on the target and the fact that the target will naturally become fuzzy or blobby. The scope is advantageous because it compresses the three planes we have to choose from, making them appear as one. The problem is that the shooter does not need to maintain the level of focus required for irons, and they end up settling for marginal success instead of persevering to develop that keener level of focus. In addition, the scope shooter will often use high levels of magnification to make it appear as though the front sight (in this case the reticule) and the target exist on the same plane and focus on the target (as they are wont to do anyway). This is an error. It is also an impossibility to present these objects on the same plane. Though it may not seem so, it is still inconsistent to focus your eye on the target. Though imperceptible to many, the reticule will blur should you focus your eye on the target and reduced accuracy will be the result.

    As we age, the muscles in our eyes that are responsible for changing their shape and orientation begin to relax. Believe it or not this can start happening as early as early as ten or twelve years of age (school teachers will notice that many students get glasses for the first time around the 3rd or 4th grade). Because those tiny little muscles can’t contract like they once did the eyes do not focus on points where the muscles have to work harder to focus. Guess what, that is close to your face (it’s why it takes so much effort to cross your eyes according to the optometrist). This means the average person tends to get a little more farsighted as they get older. One of the cases that sticks out in my mind in relation to shooting is that of Hawkhavn, fellow INGOer and shooter. The guy has to read everything at arm’s length. I am not entirely sure he can read the gauges on his truck. But, for the sake of argument, let’s say he can indeed read the newspaper at arm’s length. How big is the byline? About the same size as the front post on his Garand. How far away is that front post? About arm’s length. Hmmm. What does that mean? Well, it means that a shooter who clearly needs a scope is still capable of getting the job done with irons. Old eyes are an excuse. Anybody who has seen this guy try to read something will say it’s a good excuse, and it is. It’s still just an excuse and I bet he would say the same. The real reason his irons sight shooting is diminishing, and I would guess he would say the same again, is that he does not dry practice enough, and he would be right.

    The condition stated above can be remedied. All you have to do is retrain your eye to focus on the plane of your front sights. The best trick I have run into for this is to shine a bright light on a smooth white wall and dry practice with your irons against this wall. The lack of a target behind the post and the inability of your eye to pick out a separate target on the blank wall will train your eye to focus on the front post and condition it for that focal length. It’s a simple, neat trick that works really well. Other tricks exist for other eye conditions but the reality is still the same. You can shoot irons as well as you shoot scopes if you are willing to expend the effort and achieve the level of focus required to do so. The end result will make you a competent irons shooter and an EXCELLENT scope shooter.

    BUT WHEN I SHOOT IRONS I CAN’T SEE THE TARGET WHEN I FOCUS MY EYE ON THE POST!?! I hear that one a lot. I know others do too. It probably isn’t said in as whiny and petulant a voice as I just said it in my head, but it is said nonetheless. Here’s the rub, I can’t see it either. The 4-H club I coach has several nice target rifles of an older vintage. They have an old model of the Williams FP on them. The front sight inserts are a variety of globes and post sizes and a few silhouette shaders. If I insert the smallest globe available I can only see a very small blur in the center of the ring if the target is 6MOA or smaller. If I use a post I cannot see a target that size or smaller at all.

    This reminds me of an anecdote that makes me sound awesome, so let’s step back into Memory Lane. A while back The Bubba Effect got a new pistol and wanted to break it in. He couldn’t get down to the farm until later in the day so he, I and a buddy went tromping out into the back field. We took turns running rounds through the pistol until he was satisfied with its performance and, the hour getting late, we decided to adjourn for dinner at Joe’s Pizza. Following Thomas Jefferson’s advice, I had taken my AR along for the exercise. As we walked away in the waning light I stopped and looked back. We had been shooting at an 8 inch plate (thanks Bobcat Steel) all day and had knocked just about all the paint off of it. That made it rust colored and it blended well with the background. I could just make out the black frame it hung on. Though I couldn’t exactly see it, I knew where it was. It was about 7 or 8 in the evening in the early summer. I judged the distance to be about 125 or 150 yards. I unlimbered the AR and clicked to my 100 yard zero and gave it two clicks for God and King George and settled in. I could not see the target, and could barely see the frame, but I set my NPOA on where I knew the target to be and trusted my position, I started to squeeze and when the shot broke I called good. DING!

    At first I was afraid, I was petrified. Did that just happen? Of course it happened. I called good didn’t I? The setting was good wasn’t it? I did and it was (this time) and being able to see the target was not as important as knowing where it was. Bubba’s hearty “Good Shot!” and our buddy’s choking, coughing laugh were punctuation to the realization that being able to see the target is not as important as knowing where it is. If you know where your target is you can focus on the front post and still focus on keeping your marblebox on keeping the sights on the target. This skill is necessary for trusting your NPOA. If you don’t do this, you are a Fusser.

    People that fuss their shots aren’t bad people, just bad shooters. Sometimes they aren’t even bad shooters, just not as good as they could be. Recently I had a shooter on a line that was a good shooter and a good fusser. The shooter was Rayne, one of the grande dames of INGO, and her problem was an easy fix. I had received a message that she would be at the shoot. “Look out, she’s a fusser,” the message said. The first of her shots I observed were neat, 2 MOA cloverleafs with the holes close but not quite touching. Pretty fancy shooting, better than the men who think Nightforce and Timney can wash the dumb off. I asked what the problem was. I was informed, “They aren’t one hole. With a scope, they’re one hole.” Those are pretty high standards.

    The problem with a fusser is that they want to be perfect, and the lack of perfection frustrates them and only serves to increase group size and prevent trust in NPOA. Women seem to be more able to handle this properly and Rayne was no exception. As a coach, fussing is easily diagnosed by looking for small movements of the hands or head between shots, squinting of the dominant eye between shots, minor variations in muzzle jump from shot to shot (it can sell out muscling), and a variety of small issues. With this shooter the group size was already so small the visible symptoms would be as well, small muzzle jump to the left indicated that she was muscling left almost imperceptibly. This told me we needed to get deeper into our position. A solid position is critical to trusting NPOA. If you are loose, you can’t do it at all. A very modest amount of coaching and a shooter egoless enough to accept and digest a little coaching and willing to expend the effort was able to achieve that one hole accuracy with seeming ease. Trust yourself. Build a position that you can trust that is YOUR position. Trust that you have the mental discipline to focus your headjelly on keeping your sights where you know the target to be.

    I could go on and talk about ways to tighten a position and how that reflects in focus and different strategies for maintaining focus but I reckon that those of you with the endurance to get this far down are probably ready for my prosecution…or lunch. I hope its lunch. All I ask is that you don’t give up on irons. Sure its tougher. Most of the things that make you better are tougher to accomplish than the things that make you a fat couch potato with bad gas. I should know, I’m a fat couch potato with stinky butt syndrome. The gun world has a lot of people in it, but not enough shooters. Don’t let the skills erode and don’t give the old eyes excuse anymore. Develop trust in your NPOA and the ability to focus properly with iron sights and you will be glad you did.
     

    Hornett

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    15   0   0
    Sep 7, 2009
    2,580
    84
    Bedford, Indiana
    Sure you can see the FRONT sight but the rear sight is so blurry that you couldn't even make it out.
    If you take the time to look over some real antique black powder muzzle loaders, you won't have to look long to find one where the rear sight has been moved further toward the end of the barrel because they didn't have scopes and had to move the rear sight farther away to see it clearly. I have seen these guns where the rear sight had been moved a couple of times and was half way to the end of the barrel.
    You will also note that older shooters will move more to handguns simply because the sights are at arms length.
    Love ya' man, but you have no idea what you are talking about
    Post again about this when you are 50. :)

    Edit: I didn't notice any eye problems until I was about 48.
    Suddenly, I couldn't see up close anymore.
     

    Leo

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    30   0   0
    Mar 3, 2011
    9,820
    113
    Lafayette, IN
    NPOA , Natural point of aim, basically developing a hold an position where the most relaxed state of your muscules puts the front sight post right into the black of the target. It is very important in standing offhand or any other unsupported shooting method
     
    Last edited:

    Leo

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    30   0   0
    Mar 3, 2011
    9,820
    113
    Lafayette, IN
    The Dr Bates method of eye improvment through eye exercises works a measurable amount on a small percentage of people. It does not cost anything (maybe the price of the DR Bates book) and cannot hurt you, so a peorson may as well give it a try.

    My vision was ruined in a failed Lasik surgery. Legally blind, bad. No drivers license bad, no job bad. Many $1000's of dollars and several years later I can be corrected to 20/40 with thick and irregular bifocals. For that I am thankful.

    If you use aperature (peep) sights, there is no need to see the rear sight, simply look through the hole, it automatically lines up. I shoot my specialized iron sighted rifle as well as my scoped rifle. The problem is the cost is high. Let me illustrate:

    RPA Trakker rear sight body $400
    Lipski sight mount with RPA adaptor $100
    Gehmann 530 rear eyepiece $160
    Mo's 22mm front sight body $60
    22mm adjustable front aperature $135
    Lipski front sight mount with riser $150

    That's right a $1000 for "iron" sights, and that is good stuff, NOT the best. I only do it so it allows me to be competitive in a competition catagory. If I didn't have to fit the rule book, I would not bother.

    You can put a $400 scope on $90 mounts and be very well served. Most people I see have less than $250 in scope and mount and are pretty happy. Scopes are more than an excuse, they are a financial reality also.
     
    Last edited:

    RobbyMaQ

    #BarnWoodStrong
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    35   0   0
    Mar 26, 2012
    8,963
    83
    Lizton
    When I hit 40, I woke up one day and couldn't read the text on a pill bottle without holding it at arms length. Somedays it takes a few seconds to focus on the speedometer, then another few seconds to shift focus back to the road.

    At appleseed, I went with irons (because I can't afford scopes on all my rifles, so I want to train this way), and managed to shoot rifleman (NPOA Goes a long way!) in part because the front sight post is so far away. While it's all good to brag 'I shot rifleman with irons' I am not prepared to tell other people what to shoot with. I'd rather have someone shoot what they are comfortable with. Not too far down the road I will be getting a scope. I got my ego fix with irons... now let's see how much better I can do when I can see clearly.
     

    rhino

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    24   0   0
    Mar 18, 2008
    30,906
    113
    Indiana
    Well, we've all been schooled.

    I'll try to remember these lessons when I'm trying to shoot an AK and I can't see the rear sight at all. Maybe I'm just fussing too much?

    And I'll try to keep in mind the sacred "natural point of aim" when I'm in an awkward position, like shooting around cover or an unorthodox prone.

    ONE SIZE FITS ALL! ONE SACRED METHOD WORKS FOR ALL OR IT'S THEIR FAULT! IT'S NOT YOUR EYES, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW HOW TO SEE BETTER!
     

    N8RV

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Oct 8, 2012
    1,078
    48
    Peoria
    Wow. These guys are cold! At least you articulated your position well. :-)

    Currently, I am struggling with focus issues. At 58, I have arrived at the point where, with my bifocals, I can read up close and can see what's far away. The fuzzy zone is that area at about arm's length -- yeah, right where the front sight is for either pistol or rifle.

    So, I made an appointment with my opto and was measured for TRIfocals. He took a measure of pleasure in rubbing that in, too.

    I went to the range on Friday and started plinking at the targets with my new glasses with my Sig 226. DING! DING! DING! Then I moved to the next targets a little farther away. I didn't hear the DINGs. Hmmm ...

    Then I remembered the trifocal band in my new specs and tilted my head back a wee bit ...

    DING!

    Ahah! I could actually focus on the front sight and not just guess where it is in the fuzz. I'm no crack-shot now, but I was certainly hitting steel that I was missing before.

    You may have a valid point about retraining your ocular musculature to adapt to the front sight as we age, but I do know that the right glasses can make a difference for those of us who may indeed be too lazy -- or too wise -- to arm wrestle Mother Nature in the vision venue and are looking for another solution.

    Thanks for so eloquently sharing your ideas about extending youth in the shooting sports. Like the man said, check back when your odometer ticks over 50 ... :-)
     

    Jack Ryan

    Shooter
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Nov 2, 2008
    5,864
    36
    I was that smart to when I was in my "mid thirties".

    Tell me about it when you've had another thirty years of dumb rubbed on you.
     
    Last edited:

    JNG

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Mar 23, 2009
    258
    18
    Not being able to see a sharp, precise outline for the front sight is not a failure of discipline, or dry fire, or NPOA, or anything else. Those things are all important, but they don't mean much when someone is physically incapable of picking out the exact endpoint of the front sight post.
     

    VN Vet

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    8   0   0
    Aug 26, 2008
    2,781
    48
    Indianapolis
    I don't remember all the specifics, but here goes the meat and potato part.


    I learned this at an INDOT Seminar on Maintenance of Traffic Signs: The reflectivity of the material is based on the eye sight of a sixty-something person. Also, every 18 years, the preceived light a person sees is cut in half. ie; an 18 year old driver sees twice the light of a 36 year old who sees twice the light of a 54 year old.

    Sucks getting old.
     

    yellowhousejake

    Sharpshooter
    Industry Partner
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    May 25, 2009
    595
    18
    Greenfield
    So we all tried what he suggested, we spent a month exercising our eyes and working with irons to see if there was improvement, right?

    But this thread is not a month old, or two weeks old, even a week old, so how do we know he is a goof ball?

    Who here cannot improve their shooting, raise your hand.

    I will be 52 years old in April, I have worn glasses over forty years, I cannot read my speedometer without them, I have bifocals, and I shoot iron sights. I did not used to be able to and in fact had already given up and planned to scope all my rifles when I decided I was not willing to give up so easily.

    If you wonder where SPQR got the idea of practicing with irons against a blank white lit wall, it was me. I spent weeks training my eyes to focus on the front sight and I still practice against a blank white wall. It works.

    Regardless, should we mock him? Who is this clown anyway who thinks he can tell us old folks we are not trying hard enough? Well, he has instructed and coached hundreds of people in rifle marksmanship and is smart enough to know he doesn't know everything. So he continues to learn, to try new things, to read and gain information everywhere he can. When he critiques my shooting, I listen.

    There have been thousands of hours devoted to refining the instruction of rifle marksmanship in this country. Some of the best marksmen, the best coaches, have come from the United States. We are blessed to have the ability to look at the process of shooting well through critical eyes, something those before us didn't have.

    Even us old guys can learn to shoot irons, and improve our optic shooting at the same time. We would be fools and idiots to ignore the lessons learned in the past one hundred years.

    YHJ
     

    Leo

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    30   0   0
    Mar 3, 2011
    9,820
    113
    Lafayette, IN
    "The Bates method for better eyesight without glasses" By William Bates, MD. Copyright renewed 1971. ISBN 0-8050-0241-3

    What could it hurt, if it helps, you did well, if it does not improve your eyesight, you are only out $13, or nothing if you get it from the library. Good Luck
     

    Hookeye

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Dec 19, 2011
    15,127
    77
    armpit of the midwest
    I had better than 20/15 vision as a kid, even though I had an eye issue (Brown's Syndrome). I did lots of exercises and when i shot I could see the target, front and regular rear sights all in focus.

    Never a competition shooter, but critters near and far went down pretty easily.

    Degraded to 20/20 at age 42.

    Now 48 I am totally screwed up close or far.

    Peeps help but not enough.

    I either have to scope my rigs or give up rifles and shoot trap with a big Fiberoptic up front and at night so the lights can illuminate the clays ;)
     

    heatman

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Feb 28, 2012
    131
    18
    Sheridan
    I read most but not all of the op. I stopped midway because I already knew he was WRONG!

    My brother is an optometrist. Top of his class at IU and works for one of the best Eye Surgeons in the country.

    When I was young I could hit anything with the iron sights on my 39a. As I got older I couldn't see distance but could read perfectly without my glasses. Not good for iron sights. This happens to a lot of people. Then in my 40's it started to reverse. Couldn't read without glasses but distance got better.

    At 49 I developed cataracts, runs in the family. Had surgery this spring and had the best lenses available implanted (multifocal) Now I see 20/20 at distance and can read perfectly however between 18" and about 4' away it's blurry enough iron sights are out of the question.


    MANY people have had similar eye issues as they age and transmission of light also deminishes greatly as you age.
     
    Top Bottom