Opinions on Clays vs. Titegroup Powders

[bgcatty]

I've been using Titegroup in my .38 special target loads and my guns get so dirty that I am compelled to clean and clean and clean even while at the range. Another shooter told me to try Clays powder in the light target loads and that Clays was a cleaner burning powder and does not get as messy as Titegroup. Anyone have any opinions/experience here?

 

[Aszerigan]

Clays is much cleaner and has less snappy recoil than Titegroup. It's a wonderful powder in both 38 Spec and 45ACP. Recommended.

 

[ptt811]

Do you feel Clays is better in the 45 ACP than Universal ?

 

[gregkl]

 

[Skip]

To the OP:
Since you are shooting it out of a revolver, then, yes, it will be fine. It is cleaner and can be used on really light bullets with good success. Lots of Cowboy Action shooters use it with 125gr LRNFP bullets and it performs very, very, well. Now, my only caution is if you were to load it in a semi-automatic. Why? Because, and their technicians will back me up on this, when you go over on the charge at all OR have bullet set back, the pressure will spike terribly and could cause some REAL problems.

Case in point: Unsupported chambers much like the Browning High Power and the older Glocks in 40S&W. So, in those calibers, in those firearms, I would steer clear of Clays. I have used it in the 45ACP with good success too but, in mostly target type applications.

Have fun, and be safe!

 

[rockhopper46038]

I really like Clays for .45ACP, as well.

 

[ROLEXrifleman]

I've used clays with great success.

But I'll throw a wild card that I think trumps them all in .45 as well, and that's Red Dot

 

[Aszerigan]

Do you feel Clays is better in the 45 ACP than Universal ?

Personally, yes.

 

[Aszerigan]

Because, and their technicians will back me up on this, when you go over on the charge at all OR have bullet set back, the pressure will spike terribly and could cause some REAL problems

This is the case with any powder, not just Clays. I've used it in 9mm, 40, 38, 45ACP and several others without issue. Use a factory crimp die and you'll be fine.

 

[noylj]

Don't like 'em. Both have tendency for spikey pressures--particularly Clays (and N310). Despite individual weighed rounds, 1-2 out of 5-10 rounds will have more recoil than the rest and shoot low. I don't even want to think about trying to load any near max loads.
TiteGroup burns very hot and is not very good with lead bullets.
I find AA2, Solo 1000, and Nitro 100 easier to work with and more consistent in performance.

 

[Skip]

Factory crimp dies are a solution to problems that do not exist.

This is the case with any powder, not just Clays. I've used it in 9mm, 40, 38, 45ACP and several others without issue. Use a factory crimp die and you'll be fine.

Personally, a factory crimp die is the solution for a problem that does not exist and I do not use them. If the case is resized correctly, the proper type of crimp is applied with a two step process, seat and then crimp, there is absolutely no need for one. A good taper crimp in a semi-auto done with a standard seating crimping die is the answer to any set back problem. The factory crimp die also resizes an intentionally oversized lead bullet defeating the purpose of having one in the first place. Once the lead bullet is undersized, leading happens, and, since 99.99999999999999% of all of my shooting revolves around bullets I cast myself specifically sized for each individual gun, no, not going to use one.

The assertion that ALL powders respond in the same manner is kind of odd to me. Each powder has an identity all it's own. Such as Blue Dot becoming more spikey as temperature goes down while others are just the opposite.
Clays is notorious for having a very short loading range and when technical support was contacted about that, it was explained that it's pressure curve goes straight up with just a little bit of an overcharge or reduced case space. I know, I called and talked to them about it.

I suppose with jacketed or plated bullets, maybe, but as my previous statement says, I don't shoot a lot of them anymore. FWIW

 

[billybob44]

And here we go AGAIN!!!

Personally, a factory crimp die is the solution for a problem that does not exist and I do not use them. If the case is resized correctly, the proper type of crimp is applied with a two step process, seat and then crimp, there is absolutely no need for one. A good taper crimp in a semi-auto done with a standard seating crimping die is the answer to any set back problem. The factory crimp die also resizes an intentionally oversized lead bullet defeating the purpose of having one in the first place. Once the lead bullet is undersized, leading happens, and, since 99.99999999999999% of all of my shooting revolves around bullets I cast myself specifically sized for each individual gun, no, not going to use one.

The assertion that ALL powders respond in the same manner is kind of odd to me. Each powder has an identity all it's own. Such as Blue Dot becoming more spikey as temperature goes down while others are just the opposite.
Clays is notorious for having a very short loading range and when technical support was contacted about that, it was explained that it's pressure curve goes straight up with just a little bit of an overcharge or reduced case space. I know, I called and talked to them about it.

I suppose with jacketed or plated bullets, maybe, but as my previous statement says, I don't shoot a lot of them anymore. FWIW

^^^Here we have an "Opinion" from a part time "Hobby" reloader VS the "Facts" from a "Professional Reloader".

"The assertion that ALL powders respond in the same manner is kind of odd to me"
^^^THIS response by the "Hobbyist" is taken out of context.
The Pro (Andrew) was referring to all powders to likely have pressure problems due to bullet set back. This is a VERY correct statement/train of thought for any high pressure loading.

Skip, you are correct, VERY, VERY few "Professional Reloaders" load+sell cast bullet loads for semi-auto calibers. I do not recall seeing any in Andrew's stock of "Professional" reloaded semi-auto ammo, over the years that I have known Him.

Skip, I too am a "Hobbyist" type of reloader, with over 45 years experience-YES-more years than Andrew has been "On this Earth". We-the two of us-do have some "Lively Discussions" on proper loading techniques, and procedures, and we BOTH come away from the conversations with something learned.

Skip, the main difference between me (and most handloaders that know Andrew)and you, is that I do this with Andrew FACE TO FACE, or over a phone call--NOT--on an Internet Forum--"Light Years" away from personal contact.

Skip, your constant, and never ending slams to Andrew, a man that is in the business of working in all of areas of reloaded ammo, is getting kind of old, and tiresome.

No Purple needed, expressed or implied on this post...Bill.


PS: Mods, please do not delete. This is a long time needed post.

 

[Broom_jm]

Personally, a factory crimp die is the solution for a problem that does not exist and I do not use them. If the case is resized correctly, the proper type of crimp is applied with a two step process, seat and then crimp, there is absolutely no need for one. A good taper crimp in a semi-auto done with a standard seating crimping die is the answer to any set back problem. The factory crimp die also resizes an intentionally oversized lead bullet defeating the purpose of having one in the first place. Once the lead bullet is undersized, leading happens, and, since 99.99999999999999% of all of my shooting revolves around bullets I cast myself specifically sized for each individual gun, no, not going to use one.

The assertion that ALL powders respond in the same manner is kind of odd to me. Each powder has an identity all it's own. Such as Blue Dot becoming more spikey as temperature goes down while others are just the opposite.
Clays is notorious for having a very short loading range and when technical support was contacted about that, it was explained that it's pressure curve goes straight up with just a little bit of an overcharge or reduced case space. I know, I called and talked to them about it.

I suppose with jacketed or plated bullets, maybe, but as my previous statement says, I don't shoot a lot of them anymore. FWIW

If the factory crimp is not needed...why do factories use them? How does a properly applied factory crimp, using the Lee FCD, resize bullets, while a properly applied taper crimp will not? If the FCD resizes an intentionally oversized bullet, doesn't it only do so in the very short area where the crimp is applied?

I seat and crimp all of my SA pistol rounds in 1 step...is that "wrong"? Have you only shot 1 jacketed bullet in the last 999 Trillion you've fired? Your wife shot at least one 200gr Accubond, so does that mean you've shot twice that many bullets?

Are you aware of a suitable pistol primer that does NOT result in a pressure spike, when bullet setback occurs? That does seem to be a consistent behavior, from my understanding.

Ya know what else is a consistent behavior, Skip? Your incessant attempts to discredit a fellow member of the reloading community. One who is actually quite learned, but never too proud to admit he can still be taught new things. Are there things YOU can still learn? Civility comes to mind...

 

[rockhopper46038]

3.8 - 4.0 grains of Clays behind a 200 grain LSWC bullet loaded to 1.250/1.255 is a pretty widely praised "pistol game" load. I've put a few thousand like this (mine is 3.9 Clays, 200 grain Vance LSWC, 1.255 OAL, crimped to .469 with a Lee FCD) through my 1911 and like it quite a lot. Accurate, low recoil, consistent, and doesn't seem to lead much. Now, I have moved away from Clays for 9mm because the loading data range is just a little too narrow for my tastes, but for .45ACP I think it's quite a nice powder.

 

[billybob44]

Thanks Broom..

GREAT Post Broom---I tried to rep ya...I need to spread it around..HA HA..Bill.

 

[Grelber]

Seems like just talking about clays is enough to cause pressure spikes.

Anyway, back to the op and for what it may be worth.
Seems to meter very well in my 550 (+), knowledgable friends recommend it strongly for clean shooting 45 revolver IDPA and IPSC loads (++), the safe minimum to maximum charge weight is a narrow range compared to something like bullseye (-), the velocity sensitivity to charge weight is pretty high (-), and I haven't found a recipe that is as accurate as bullseye yet (-).

 

[Leo]

Clays is great for powder puff, light revolver target loads. I find it clean and consistant behind a 148 gr HB lead wadcutter in a bullseye revolver. It is too fast for loads that are any where near factory load velocity. It gives poor consistancy and some of the primers will show pressure signs and some not, even with the same load. This is also seen on the target. I do not use it for any full or +P velocity jacketed bullets, even in the .38.

 

[Skip]

Broom, no I have intention of dissing anyone. The fact you do not shoot lead comes into play here as your knowledge in this matter is flawed.
Do you have a LFCD or a taper crimp die or a roll computer die. They are not all equal sir.
The LFCD resizes the case for almost the full length of the case, there is an inside collet. I will take one apart and show you how they are different.

If I differ in opinion with someone on the forum, and state it, how is that different than a response to my post? But whatever. Broom, you do have a lot of knowledge in reloading but it is sorely lacking in this aspect of it.

Remember, factory ammo has to fit EVERY chamber in that caliber. Mine only has to fit mine.
Sorry for what seems to be an attack against someone for simply stating my opinion. Sems that some folks can have an opinion and as longs as you go along with them you are accepted. That's fine, but, there was no attack in my statement. Just giving MY opinion which has been developed over several decades of reloading.


But again, whatever.

 

[Skip]

Billybob, thank you for your post. Have a good day.

 

[Skip]

And, Broom, the topic of discussion was Clays in a handgun not lead in a rifle. To keep things on topic for the OP.

A better statement of m