Physicians and guns

[ArmedProgrammer]

No reason for legislation - totally agreed. EVERY reason to ask my doctor who the bleep he thinks he is. I will ask my doctor's opinion of my gun handling practices right after I get a proctological exam from the Appleseed or Suarez folks... Don't worry folks, I don't plan on that anytime soon...

The point is - if you aren't an expert, it's None of Your Business.

I don't go to my doctor for gun handling advice. Nor do I go to my CPA when I have a cold.

 

[CarmelHP]

My understanding about this is/was, they were really only asking children. Trying to "educate" the young that firearms are dangerous. Can't remember who was behind this, but it seems they did have an agenda. The AMA maybe?

Unfortunately, a grant to Indiana's Riley Hospital* started this crap about 15 years ago. They started sending out packets to pediatricians nationwide telling them to ask the children this and then badger the parents.


*The Indiana Partnership to Prevent Violent Injury and Death, a program of the Indiana University School of Medicine, Indiana University School of Law, Riley Hospital for Children, and Clarian Health Partners, continues to serve as the sole, multi-disciplinary program in the state that addresses gun violence from a public health perspective and seeks to better understand and reduce gun injuries through research and education initiatives.

 

[INGunGuy]

Didn't it get a little uncomfortable being in that position for thirty minutes?

LOL... yea... maybe he should have given me a kiss... LOL

INGunGuy

 

[level.eleven]

No reason for legislation - totally agreed. EVERY reason to ask my doctor who the bleep he thinks he is. I will ask my doctor's opinion of my gun handling practices right after I get a proctological exam from the Appleseed or Suarez folks... Don't worry folks, I don't plan on that anytime soon...

The point is - if you aren't an expert, it's None of Your Business.

I don't go to my doctor for gun handling advice. Nor do I go to my CPA when I have a cold.

This is nanny state legislation. If your doctor asks you questions you don't like, or won't accept "There isn't a firearms issue in my home" (or however you chose to phrase it) get a new one. Do you need a law for that?

The catch is, that it is likely a political result to some extent. So there is an urge to further legislate.

 

[eldirector]

What are they going to do if they find out the person is storing guns within reach of children? Invade their house without a warrant and then charge them with leaving a gun on the coffee table? All jokes aside, I see no reason for legislation.

If they "feel" the child is at risk, they would be obligated to report it to local LE. So..... yeah.

Our pediatrician didn't have to ask. I OC'ed at our first appointment.

No legislation necessary, though. Folks that are offended can simply tell the Doc to stick to medicine, and/or switch doctors.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

Reminds me of the old joke: a doctor is walking through the park when he sees a guy smoking. The doctor goes up to him and says "you shouldn't smoke, it's bad for you." The guy says, "Yeah, well my uncle lived to be 95." The doc asks, "Did he smoke?? The guy answers, "I don't know, but he minded his own freakin' business."

THIS

 

[The Bubba Effect]

No reason for legislation - totally agreed. EVERY reason to ask my doctor who the bleep he thinks he is. I will ask my doctor's opinion of my gun handling practices right after I get a proctological exam from the Appleseed or Suarez folks... Don't worry folks, I don't plan on that anytime soon...

The point is - if you aren't an expert, it's None of Your Business.

I don't go to my doctor for gun handling advice. Nor do I go to my CPA when I have a cold.

Not it!

 

[Bond 281]

I do see it as somewhat applicable. Firearm accidents do pose a significant risk for young children especially. Accidentally shooting yourself is detrimental to your health. It should be a doctors priority to protect the health of his patients and this is an issue that could affect that. I think an appropriate exchange could entail a parent bringing in a child for a visit, especially a well child visit or establish a new doctor visit. Then the doctor, while identifying risk factors, says something to the effect of "firearm accidents are a concern with children of Billy's age. Any firearms in your house should be out of his reach when not under direct supervision." That way you don't have to ask, but the message is still conveyed.

"Protecting patient health" is far too much of a catch-all phrase. Maybe I just like my privacy, but if a doctor asked my hypothetical child that then lectured me about it I would be finding a new doctor and would probably tell him off. It's invasive questioning for no real reason (it's not as though children playing with firearms and injuring themselves is some sort of epidemic), and frankly what you had in quotations sounds exceedingly patronizing. I get the rationale behind it, but a doctor's job isn't to nanny you and lecture you about the risks of every sort of behavior. In my opinion anyway. I don't mean to come off too harshly I just hate patronizing stuff like that.

 

[flagtag]

Also, think about this: Asking a child about guns in the house is teaching him/her to break the law. (This used to be called "Contributing to the delinquency of a child" - don't know if that has been changed)

Violating the right of privacy - lawsuit? (Or: "Where's the warrant, Doc.?")

 

[Garb]

If they "feel" the child is at risk, they would be obligated to report it to local LE. So..... yeah.

Our pediatrician didn't have to ask. I OC'ed at our first appointment.

No legislation necessary, though. Folks that are offended can simply tell the Doc to stick to medicine, and/or switch doctors.

Can law enforcement get a warrant based on the word of a doctor based on the word of a child? Even when the doctor is pressing the issue? I'm not sure it would be probable cause for the police to search my home.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Unfortunately, a grant to Indiana's Riley Hospital* started this crap about 15 years ago. They started sending out packets to pediatricians nationwide telling them to ask the children this and then badger the parents.

I don't think either of my children have been asked, my wife and I were asked about it once. I was carrying concealed and was very tempted to lift up my shirt and say yes.

I have OCed in front of my children's current Dr. and Dentist for that matter though.

Also, think about this: Asking a child about guns in the house is teaching him/her to break the law. (This used to be called "Contributing to the delinquency of a child" - don't know if that has been changed)

Violating the right of privacy - lawsuit? (Or: "Where's the warrant, Doc.?")

I'm not sure about the contributing, according to IC a child can have a firearm on their property with consent of the parent(s)/guardian.

From the IC on children and firearms. It was last amended in 1996, but I don't know what was changed.

IC 35-47-10-1
Exemptions from chapter
Sec. 1. This chapter does not apply to the following:

(6) A child who:
(A) is on real property that is under the control of the child's parent, an adult family member of the child, or the child's legal guardian; and
(B) has permission from the child's parent or legal guardian to possess a firearm.
(7) A child who:
(A) is at the child's residence; and
(B) has the permission of the child's parent, an adult family member of the child, or the child's legal guardian to possess a firearm.

And what violation of privacy? Anyone can ask anyone else anything they want. It's up to them if they wish to answer.

 

[drillsgt]

IU school of medicine teaches all of its medical students to ask about guns in the home as well as smoke detectors, seat belt use, sleep, exercise, and stressors. It is supposed to identify "risk factors." I still don't ask about most of them but I do lose points over it.

Honestly the next 1500 often makes it into our lunch talk so the class in general is probably pretty 2nd amendment friendly.

I do see it as somewhat applicable. Firearm accidents do pose a significant risk for young children especially. Accidentally shooting yourself is detrimental to your health. It should be a doctors priority to protect the health of his patients and this is an issue that could affect that. I think an appropriate exchange could entail a parent bringing in a child for a visit, especially a well child visit or establish a new doctor visit. Then the doctor, while identifying risk factors, says something to the effect of "firearm accidents are a concern with children of Billy's age. Any firearms in your house should be out of his reach when not under direct supervision." That way you don't have to ask, but the message is still conveyed.

While it can be argued there is always risk I would not say that it is a significant issue statistically speaking. If we stick with the strict defininition of a child such as those under eighteen (and not into the twenties like the anti's like to do) than there were only 112 unintentional (accidental) deaths among children <1-17 years of age (2007 data). While unintentional injuries are significant in this age range, firearms deaths rank at around number eight (CDC data). If we look at non-fatal unintentional injuries then the figure jumps to around 1820 (2009 data) or so but still far behind other causes of injury. While 1800 may seem high this population overall is around 27 million. Firearms accidents as a whole have been declining steadily since statistics were kept at around the early 1900's. The big driving force behind this line of inquiry is the AMA as a previous poster indicated but more so the AAP (American Academy of Pediatrics). Both groups are rabidly anti-gun and you can go to the AAP website and look at some of their "brochures" and get an idea of how they feel about the issue. I work at IUPUI and am doing my dissertation related to this topic and was able to get a hold of the powepoint that is presented to the medical students or residents and it is full of data from guess who? The Brady's and other groups of course, it is a very misleading presentation. Another main reason for IU's focus is this from CarmelHP:

Unfortunately, a grant to Indiana's Riley Hospital* started this crap about 15 years ago. They started sending out packets to pediatricians nationwide telling them to ask the children this and then badger the parents.


*The Indiana Partnership to Prevent Violent Injury and Death, a program of the Indiana University School of Medicine, Indiana University School of Law, Riley Hospital for Children, and Clarian Health Partners, continues to serve as the sole, multi-disciplinary program in the state that addresses gun violence from a public health perspective and seeks to better understand and reduce gun injuries through research and education initiatives.

This group receives a lot of funding (most actually) from the Joyce Foundation located in Chicago which also funds the Brady Campaign and just about any other anti-gun group or academic institution running anti-gun "research" oh and guess who was on the board? Barack Obama if that tells you anything.

Research related to this issue of physicians asking patients about gun storage/ownership etc have met with very very limited success in changing patients attitudes about gun ownership and are usually only successful in urban environments with more impressionable less educated parents. A lot of the research has met with results similar to what we have stated here which is it's none of your business or you're not qualified to talk to us on this issue etc. Just my opinion and not an attack on a.bentonab at all.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

Drillsgt brings up an interesting point about the *real* risk factors.

If they concerned about risk factors, how about asking Johnny or Susie if their mommy or daddy likes to talk on the cell phone or put on makeup while driving?

Doctors should be confining their nanny-ish concerns to my _immediate_ person, and do what I pay them for. If I wanted someone to nag me and tell me that I shouldn't have guns in my home - I'm sure that I'd find plenty of idiots to fill that role - and they wouldn't be charging me $100/hr to do it.

 

[45fan]

My son (just turned 12 last month) was in the doctors office at the beginning of this school year. The doc asked him about guns in the house, and my sons response - "Thats none of your business".

I haven't brought him up to be disrespectful to adults, nor had I ever thought that anyone would ask him about guns in the house, but he made me quite proud that morning for thinking fast, and knowing when someone was asking inappropriate questions.

 

[ElsiePeaRN]

As a home care nurse, I am required to assess "home safety" in my patients. This includes inquiring about firearms in the house and if they are secured. I often forget to ask about this.

As for physicians asking children about firearms, the US Department of Health & Human Services, via the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, develops quality guidelines by which healthcare practitioners are judged. One of the areas healthcare providers are judged on is their assessment of patient safety. This includes assessment of smoking, substance abuse, general safety and "firearms risk." It is aimed at preventing injury among children and preventing elderly and/or mentally or terminally ill patients suicide.

There is an overall poor adherence to this quality measure, as you might expect. As one of the rationales for the "need" for this measure, AHRQ actually lists the "overall poor quality for the performance measured."

I recently read an education article that said,

...studies in the medical field have demonstrated that parents and guardians are receptive to recommendations against having guns in the home (Haught, Grossman, & Connell, 1995) and to guidance about safe storage practices (Webster, Wilson, Duggan, & Pakula, 1992). Safe storage practices have been associated with a decrease in youth homicides and suicides, as well as a decline in unintentional shooting deaths among older youths (Cummings, Grossman, Rivara, & Koepsell, 1997).

I wondered how they measured "receptiveness." In my experience, people are very open and willing to answer any question I ask as a healthcare provider.

 

[flagtag]

I don't think either of my children have been asked, my wife and I were asked about it once. I was carrying concealed and was very tempted to lift up my shirt and say yes.

I have OCed in front of my children's current Dr. and Dentist for that matter though.



I'm not sure about the contributing, according to IC a child can have a firearm on their property with consent of the parent(s)/guardian.

From the IC on children and firearms. It was last amended in 1996, but I don't know what was changed.
And what violation of privacy? Anyone can ask anyone else anything they want. It's up to them if they wish to answer.

I guess I didn't state it correctly.
I wasn't referring to firearms, but the asking the child to tell something about the parent(s) that the doctor has no business asking a minor. (OK to ask the parents - who could just tell the doctor "NOYB" or decide to tell or not.)
How many parents would give a child permission to discuss family matters?
I meant (with the contributing issue) encouraging a child to violate the rights of the parent(s) to privacy. (And to violate the Constitution) (The child would not know better.)

 

[flagtag]

My son (just turned 12 last month) was in the doctors office at the beginning of this school year. The doc asked him about guns in the house, and my sons response - "Thats none of your business".

I haven't brought him up to be disrespectful to adults, nor had I ever thought that anyone would ask him about guns in the house, but he made me quite proud that morning for thinking fast, and knowing when someone was asking inappropriate questions.

Yeah for your son! Bright kid. You have every right to be proud of him. Congratulations!

 

[flagtag]

No doctor, nurse, or anyone else should be asking a child such things. If they want the answers to such questions, they should ask the parent(s).

There would be some VERY SPECIAL circunstances (court case, etc.) where a child might be asked by a law professional. (Judge, prosecuting attorney, etc.) But, no one should be sneaking around behind the parent(s) back. Ever read 1984? It should be out in the open.