Possession of firearms on Federal Property (Post Offices)

[Lawguns]

Years ago I got into an argument with a Postal clerk. The question was weather I could carry a firearm into a Post Office while conducting personal business. This was before I became a police officer.

Most people that carry have seen this sign or something like it.

Sec. 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in
Federal facilities

(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

I saw this a few times and figured I should look up subsection (d) which shows the exceptions. So here we are.

TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

PART I--CRIMES

CHAPTER 44--FIREARMS

Sec. 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in
Federal facilities

(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
(b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or
attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.
(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to--
(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or
(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

I would like to draw your attention to section (d) subsection (3), I propose that every person in the state of Indiana that has a carry permit should be allowed to carry in Post Offices and other federal property (I omitted the other sections about Federal Courts) because carrying in Indiana with a permit is a "other lawful purposes."

Here is the link I copied the law from § 930. — *Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities. - US § 930. — *Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities. - US Code :: Justia

 

[BloodEclipse]

We have had this discussion way back when and basically came to the conclusion that no one wanted to be the test case.
I don't go to the post office hardly ever and I had always planned to ask my postmaster about what you have brought up.

 

[Lawguns]

Sorry to rehash an old topic. I don't remember seeing that one but I have sold a gun since then. I never had to test it. I always carried but they never saw it. I did OC in the Post Office one day after I became a Police Officer, However I was there as a gun dealer because they had lost 2 guns in the mail. The Supervisor first asked if I was a police officer. I said yes and showed him my ID and that was it. Then he passed me on to the Postal Inspector who said he was going to lock me up for shipping firearms. I told him to come down and try and while he was on his way I would like to talk to his supervisor. The supervisor handled it quickly and the guns were recovered in 2 days, but that is a whole different story.

 

[BloodEclipse]

Sorry to rehash an old topic. I don't remember seeing that one but I have sold a gun since then. I never had to test it. I always carried but they never saw it. I did OC in the Post Office one day after I became a Police Officer, However I was there as a gun dealer because they had lost 2 guns in the mail. The Supervisor first asked if I was a police officer. I said yes and showed him my ID and that was it. Then he passed me on to the Postal Inspector who said he was going to lock me up for shipping firearms. I told him to come down and try and while he was on his way I would like to talk to his supervisor. The supervisor handled it quickly and the guns were recovered in 2 days, but that is a whole different story.

No not a rehash. It has been some time ago and we have many new members who might have missed it. If I can find time later I will look for it.

 

[Comp]

I would love to learn more on this subject!

 

[BloodEclipse]

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...amendment/7095-the_post_office_test_case.html

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...elf_defense/6806-the_post_office_problem.html

 

[sporter]

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...amendment/7095-the_post_office_test_case.html

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...elf_defense/6806-the_post_office_problem.html

The first link you provided is apples and oranges to what the OP posted here.

The case involved a postal employee storing a firearm on post office property.
No gun permit was mentioned (hence no lawful purposes).. and subsection d was not mentioned in the case (as far as I read).
As the judge ruled in the case above 2nd amendment did not extend to Federal and Federal property however this is not a question over the 2nd amendment.
The OP's question is whether carry is legal or not...
As far as subsection d;3 is concerned lawful carry of a firearm or other dangerous weapon is legal if it is for lawful purposes.
In Indiana carrying your pistol for self defense with a LTCH is a lawful purpose (FACT).

Would I advertise carrying (ala open carry) in a post office (hell no!).

You make your own choice.

On another note:
At the time this law or code was enacted I do not think it was the intention that "normal" people (citizens) carry their self defense firearms on federal property since at the time CCW, LTCH, etc were not common as this has just come around for much of the country within the last 20 years.

 

[melensdad]

I go to the post office about once a week. I always disarm and leave the gun in the car.

Someday when I am in there and it is not busy I will have to ask.

 

[Bill of Rights]

I go to the post office about once a week. I always disarm and leave the gun in the car.

Someday when I am in there and it is not busy I will have to ask.

Suggest parking off of Post Office property when you do, just in case they decide that the question is PC to search your vehicle as well. It would not be right, but I would not put it past them, and I don't want to see you be the test case, either.

I agree with the OP that this should not be prohibited; if anything, Federal properties should be the least, not the most restricted (prison facilities excepted, naturally, and those, I think, should have lockers at the entrance to secure your firearm if you have some reason to be there voluntarily)

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Boilers]

I am sure that hundreds of dangerous weapons are taken onto USPS property every day in Indy and area.

And what makes the USPS government property? They are about as self-sustaining, profit-driven as other quasi-governmental agencies.

 

[jsgolfman]

Seeing as the Constitution was designed to restrain the federal government and the provisions of the BoR dictate rights we have that the federal government cannot infringe upon, I would say federal facilities are the LAST place that you should be prohibited from carrying a firearm.

 

[Donnelly]

Seeing as the Constitution was designed to restrain the federal government and the provisions of the BoR dictate rights we have that the federal government cannot infringe upon, I would say federal facilities are the LAST place that you should be prohibited from carrying a firearm.

True in theory, but we all know how far our reality has gotten from the intent our Founding Fathers held for us. It sucks, but it is the world we live in unless or until we change it.

 

[Fargo]

I go to the post office about once a week. I always disarm and leave the gun in the car.

Someday when I am in there and it is not busy I will have to ask.

I would posit that getting legal advice from a federal bureaucrat might not be the safest or most effective thing to do. What they tell you has no binding authority that I am aware of and they certainly aren't going to put it in writing. Further, mentioning carrying a firearm into a post office to a postal employee is IMO likely to get the police called on you regardless of any law being broken.

 

[BloodEclipse]

3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

The more I read this and try to process it the more I think I would not carry in a post office. While it does say other lawful purposes it will apply to federal law and not what is lawful in the State. I refuse to be a test case.

 

[alfahornet]

I have been told a couple times during carry classes that post offices are a big no no, including parking lot.

 

[AFA1CY]

Happy reading:

http://www.ca11.uscourts.gov/opinions/ops/19947057.OPA.pdf

 

[Turtle]

If I can ship a rifle at the post office im guessing i can carry at one right? I have open carried at the post office or UPS many times while sending packages and never had an issue. ? Heck I never even thought about it. Besides didnt a mad postman coin the phrase (going postal)?

 

[Ness2k]

I have said hello to a state police officer who was in uniform at the local post office while OC'ing.

I'd love to believe that the "lawful purposes" exception covers us, but I'd really like to get a legal input on it.

 

[Lawguns]

Shipping is another whole discussion and let’s not get UPS and Post Offices confused. The UPS stores are a private company. As for being a test case I agree that I don't want to be the test case. I also understand that we are all told that carrying is a NO NO in a post office.
As for asking a Postal Employee the rules, I would not ask them. In my experience I have never been given a straight answer from them. Postal employees always repeat what they are told, but that might not be the true law.
My next question is who is going to lock you up? Local police can't lock you up for violations of Federal Law, as much as I would like to sometimes. I do think they could detain you for a reasonable amount of time for the Postal inspectors to respond but who knows what hours they work and where they are.
As for Postal employee’s they must follow the rules set by their employer.

If I can ship a rifle at the post office im guessing i can carry at one right? I have open carried at the post office or UPS many times while sending packages and never had an issue. ? Heck I never even thought about it. Besides didnt a mad postman coin the phrase (going postal)?

 

[serpicostraight]

i go the va and i talk to the va cops alot and they have said it is illegal to carry anywhere on va property cant even have it in your vehicle. one of them told me that included all federal property va,post office, social security office etc. i dont know if that is thier opinion or the law.