Pressure signs?

[Woobie]

It's the RCBS beam scale.

I'm assuming the 505 since the 1010 has been discontinued. (Those were Cadillacs, btw). I like beam scales, it's impossible to forget to zero them. As long as you have a flat level surface and you don't move it after you zero you should be good. But it's still important to check them against a standard periodically.

Something else to consider is if your neck tension adjustment on your seater die got changed, for instance when you switched bullets. Then maybe you switched back without changing the adjustment.

Is it possible you grabbed some magnum primers by accident?

I don't want to sound insulting, I'm just trying to jog your brain. I once loaded some .308 and when I got to the range, I had a FTF. When I extracted the case, the bullet was barely stuck in the lands. So I checked my rounds, and I had loaded a whole row without powder. This was irritating, because I always am very thorough and careful. And I shine a light in every case before seating to check for irregularities - such as missing powder. But I had finished these loads about 1:00 AM, and probably skipped that step by accident. Now I don't load when I'm tired. Shouldn't have before, but I had never made a mistake before either.

 

[Woobie]

Savages have notoriously tight chambers, maybe the OAL is the issue like another mentioned, it's too long for that particular chamber

Winchester primers also tend to be softer, so they might show deformation quicker than CCI or another harder primer.

As for the balance scale, I'd look into a digital

The only thing is, some of these were (at least supposed to be) the same as a previous load, and those showed no pressure signs.

And I HATE digital scales. All the ones I've been around lost zero constantly, and were slow. You'd have to pay me to use a digital instead of my 1010.

 

[Broom_jm]

Rifle is a Savage model 11VT. Primers are Winchester large rifle. I am questioning my scales to some degree. I've loaded quite a bit of the 4064 recipe and don't recall having any pressure signs before. I'll weigh a few projectiles tonight to check my scales.
Only once or twice did I have to put any extra effort into the bolt handle to remove the case after firing and then it was just a smack on the bolt with my palm.
I have considered using an indoor range but that won't tell me anything about accuracy which is what I'm looking at. These were supposed to be approximations of FGMM and this trip I was comparing them to FGMM. I shot 4 5 shot groups of FGMM, 2 groups of the 4064 recipe and 2 groups of the Benchmark recipe. Since it's such a drive, I take several rifles and spend 3-5 hours there. This particular trip I wasn't shooting all that great. Each group of the FGMM had a flyer pushing the group size up to around 2". Normally with this rifle I can hold sub 1" groups with occasional flyers pushing it up to about 1 1/4".
I had previously done a ladder test with 4064 and at the time my best groups were at 43.0 and 43.2. The 4064 recipe was below this so I wasn't concerned with it. I'm pretty sure everything was the same components as when I did the ladder test. I don't recall any primer cratering or extractor markings back then. None of the FGMM I shot showed these pressure signs.
I still have some of both loaded. I think I'll pull them apart a reweigh the charges.

Matt

You show two different headstamps (neither of which are Federal) in your picture. Are you not sorting cases by headstamp? That's basically a requirement, if you're going to load near-max charge weights.

Were you shooting in cold temps when you got the better groups? Some powders are sensitive to temperature changes.

If you shoot high-powered rifles for 3-5 hours, are you using a lead sled or some other kind of recoil dampening device? If so, be advised that it's common to have fliers from a sled. If you're not using a sled, are you getting a little jumpy, after all that recoil?

 

[Notalentbum]

You show two different headstamps (neither of which are Federal) in your picture. Are you not sorting cases by headstamp? That's basically a requirement, if you're going to load near-max charge weights.

Were you shooting in cold temps when you got the better groups? Some powders are sensitive to temperature changes.

If you shoot high-powered rifles for 3-5 hours, are you using a lead sled or some other kind of recoil dampening device? If so, be advised that it's common to have fliers from a sled. If you're not using a sled, are you getting a little jumpy, after all that recoil?

I have not been sorting by headstamp. I've been keeping all the new FGMM I shoot separate and saving them till I have a decent supply to only shoot them. I started reloading in '13 when there was virtually no ammo to be had. I unwittingly bought a bag of demilitarized brass and have been using it and whatever other ammo I had been able to buy back then. Most of what I had shot was the second time reloading this demilitarized brass. I had ran through a pound of the 4064 and then switched over to the Benchmark because I hated the way the 4064 metered. These were my first loads of Benchmark and I probably should have ran a ladder test with it but after having found the same recipe recommended on several websites, I decided to trust it.
My better shooting was back in the warmer months. These recent rounds were shot when the temps of the day were in the high 40s and low 50s. I shoot from benches with some heavy bags for rifle support. When I go, I take a variety of rifles, shooting a handful of rounds from the oddball rifles first to get accustomed to the recoil. I'll usually take an AR or my Mosin or SKS and play at the 50yd range first then move over to the 100yd for my two Savage 11VTs. One in .308 and the other in .223. I start with the .308 and new FGMM and then shoot whatever I have loaded. After shooting what I've loaded in the .308 I run through 40 or 50 in my .223. My shoulder wouldn't like 3-5 hours of blasting with the .308!

Matt

 

[Woobie]

It isn't uncommon to see flyers on near or over max loads. But differing head stamps will also give you fits in this regard as well. Broom is right, if you're close to max loads, you might actually be over max if some of them have a smaller capacity. That's stuff you need to know.

Benchmark is an extreme powder so in theory, temperature swings should effect it less. But it's still something to keep an eye on. Going from hot to cold isn't bad, but going from cold to hot can be.

I'm with you on 4064. It's a good powder, but the grains are about a foot and a half long. I weigh each charge, but just throwing it is a crunchy mess.

 

[Broom_jm]

I'm a big fan of H4895 in 308 Winchester loads. Using weight-sorted Winchester brass and 155gr A-Max bullets, my son's Savage Model 10 FLP will shoot 1/2 MOA groups out to 300 yards and more. Four different people have shot 1/2" groups at 100 yards with his rifle and that load. You don't get that kind of accuracy when mixing headstamps.

I will not use Federal 308 brass from their GMM line. I have tested it and found it to be too soft. Primers seat way too easily and often fall out after just two firings. I know you said you're saving it until you have enough to make it your single source, but if you search around, you'll find many experienced loaders find it unsuitable for safe reloading.

IMR stick powders, like 4064, 4350 and 4831, are coarse and long-grained, to be sure. I never worried about it too much, but when I found H4831SSC (super short cut) worked very well in my 270 Win loads, I was only too happy to make the switch!

 

[Woobie]

I've heard nothing but good things about Winchester brass. The first batch I bought was truly sorry, so I switched to Hornady and have been very happy. But my experience is probably a rare exception, so I wouldn't discourage anyone from trying it.

 

[Notalentbum]

I've never bought new naked brass. Actually the only brass I've bought was the demilitarized LC brass. Everything I've loaded has been either the LC stuff or purchased boxes of loaded ammo. I didn't think the brass would be a big accuracy factor at the stage I'm at. I always kind of thought that was for the High Power match guys. I'm quite a ways off from that yet. Sounds like I need to buy a few bags of new brass!

Matt

 

[thomasred5]

You didn't do any damage to your rifle. I've had worse, see photo. Before I knew better, I had worked up a load in my rifle using 1x fired LC brass, then duplicated that load using Lapua brass (which is heavier brass) which resulted in increased pressure. It increased it just enough to where I had flattened primers with carbon seeping through, really bad case head swipe and deformation, and blown primers. Little things can influence your pressure, the variables are seemingly endless.

 

[Woobie]

I've never bought new naked brass. Actually the only brass I've bought was the demilitarized LC brass. Everything I've loaded has been either the LC stuff or purchased boxes of loaded ammo. I didn't think the brass would be a big accuracy factor at the stage I'm at. I always kind of thought that was for the High Power match guys. I'm quite a ways off from that yet. Sounds like I need to buy a few bags of new brass!

Matt

Next cartridge I get into I will just buy Lapua if it is available. Buy once cry once. But the Hornady has served me well so far in .308. Don't let my experience dissuade you from trying Winchester, either.

 

[42769vette]

Next cartridge I get into I will just buy Lapua if it is available. Buy once cry once. But the Hornady has served me well so far in .308. Don't let my experience dissuade you from trying Winchester, either.

Don't overlook Nosler either. Before Lapua got into the 260 game, I bought a ton of Nosler since Lapua was not an answer. The Nosler was cheaper, and in terms of uniformity, every bit as good.

 

[jimbo-indy]

Recently purchased some 308 Lapua brass. Before loading, I weighed it and compared it to Federal GM and Parvi Partison (sp?) brass that I had saved from previous shooting. The Federal brass was actually heavier than the Lapua or the PP. The Lapua and the PP were essentially the same weight. Shooting reloads in the Federal and the PP cases, using the same bullet and powder charge, the Federal crono'd about 50 FPS faster. This confirms that the Federal GM brass did, in fact, have a smaller internal capacity.

 

[Notalentbum]

I spent an hour or so this afternoon checking out stuff. I weighed half dozen 168g projectiles and half dozen 55g .223s. All 12 were within .1 grains of base weight. I have to say that scale is close enough.
I pulled six of the Benchmark rounds. They all weighed right at 42.0g. The 4064s were another story. The first 5 I weighed were all exactly 1g heavy the next two were right on weight. I have to guess at some point I must have bumped the 1g weight and not noticed it. That would explain why I had found some fired LC brass that showed no signs of pressure.
It had been several weeks since I shot these. When I initially posted I didn't remember that I had also shot quite a few out of my AR-10. That explains why some are stretched quite a bit and were taking so much pressure to resize. I tried to fit a few that had yet to be resized in my Savage and they didn't begin to go in battery.
At this point I realize I should have done much better post shooting inspection and kept them separated so I could tell which ones were 4064, which were Benchmark and which were fired out of my AR-10. I won't make that mistake next time!
I have to guess I missed bumping my scale when I loaded the 4064 and I'm going to have to pull all that are still loaded. I only have a few Benchmark rounds still loaded and I'll pull them as well. They are just loaded too hot so next time I'll do a proper ladder test.
I think from now on I'll check scale zero every 5 I load and double check the scale reading every round before dumping the charge in the case.


Matt

 

[oldpink]

Yep, you found the source of your problems.
This is one of the reasons that I took the plunge and bought a PACT electronic scale ten years ago.
I've never regretted making the extra investment, and PACT makes a very good, dependable product.

 

[Broom_jm]

The cool thing here is you're starting to look at your reloading practices and realizing that consistency is the key to both accuracy and safety.

You should definitely keep your brass for the AR-10 and Savage bolt-action separated; they should be loaded differently. I would load the rounds for the AR-10 to function well in a semi-auto action and be reasonably accurate. The brass for your Savage should be neck-sized, when possible, and extra care taken to create accurate loads. Buying dedicated quality brass, like Lapua, Nosler or weight-sorted Winchester, is a key first step. After that, it's all about concentricity. Best groups are usually obtained after a piece of brass has been fire-formed to your chamber and then neck-sized for the 2nd firing, which is when you'll see the improved accuracy. Keep track of how many firings and only bump the shoulder back with a F/L sizing die if you cannot easily close the bolt on a case that has been fired but not yet sized.

 

[Notalentbum]

Sort of off topic, but while surfing yesterday I saw some guy on a gun site claim his new custom die loaded the majority of the rounds he was working with to no more than .0004" concentricity. I'm a long time tool and die maker and have spent the last 20 years making gages. I'd love to see a setup that can accurately check runout of a loaded round. I'd be real close to calling BS on his claim.

Im sure some of my sloppiness has come from reloading my .223 stuff on my 650. Once I found a solid functional recipe, I just keep it fed and pull that handle!

Matt

 

[Woobie]

Don't overlook Nosler either. Before Lapua got into the 260 game, I bought a ton of Nosler since Lapua was not an answer. The Nosler was cheaper, and in terms of uniformity, every bit as good.

Thanks for the tip!

 

[Woobie]

The cool thing here is you're starting to look at your reloading practices and realizing that consistency is the key to both accuracy and safety.

You should definitely keep your brass for the AR-10 and Savage bolt-action separated; they should be loaded differently. I would load the rounds for the AR-10 to function well in a semi-auto action and be reasonably accurate. The brass for your Savage should be neck-sized, when possible, and extra care taken to create accurate loads. Buying dedicated quality brass, like Lapua, Nosler or weight-sorted Winchester, is a key first step. After that, it's all about concentricity. Best groups are usually obtained after a piece of brass has been fire-formed to your chamber and then neck-sized for the 2nd firing, which is when you'll see the improved accuracy. Keep track of how many firings and only bump the shoulder back with a F/L sizing die if you cannot easily close the bolt on a case that has been fired but not yet sized.

This is good advice. If you're wanting compatible rounds, you can always load separately for the two guns, then check your point of impact at various distances when shooting the AR-10 loads out of the bolt gun. Write that down so you can adjust appropriately in an emergency.

Glad you found the culprit, OP! I like to take my loading blocks to the range, and leave spaces between the various loads, marking which is which so I don't get anything mixed up. Then I put the brass back exactly where it came from, checking for pressure after groups (or usually during).

 

[Woobie]

Sort of off topic, but while surfing yesterday I saw some guy on a gun site claim his new custom die loaded the majority of the rounds he was working with to no more than .0004" concentricity. I'm a long time tool and die maker and have spent the last 20 years making gages. I'd love to see a setup that can accurately check runout of a loaded round. I'd be real close to calling BS on his claim.

Im sure some of my sloppiness has come from reloading my .223 stuff on my 650. Once I found a solid functional recipe, I just keep it fed and pull that handle!

Matt

This ones pretty nice: http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...s/sinclair-concentricity-gauge-prod37479.aspx

But the resolution is .001. I'm comfortable saying something is .0025, or .0030, but differentiating between .0014 and .0015 I don't think would be possible.

 

[Notalentbum]

This ones pretty nice: SINCLAIR CONCENTRICITY GAUGE | Sinclair Intl

But the resolution is .001. I'm comfortable saying something is .0025, or .0030, but differentiating between .0014 and .0015 I don't think would be possible.

I can buy into around .001" on that setup but I don't believe you could accurately claim less than .0005" runout with that rig even if you had a .0001" indicator. I seriously doubt the brass itself runs that perfect.

Matt