Property tax needs to be repealed / abolished NOW! (Morgan Co info here)

[Ingomike]

If it’s by market value, does the government budget double if the market value doubles?

Why should government entities that rely on property taxes have a windfall for every housing bubble? As mentioned there are other ways to raise money governments need to operate. Have a bake sale.

Based on Kenley’s comments I don’t think they (Daniels and those that created the tax reform) ever thought Indiana would experience such a drastic bubble to have this issue. He also is looking into way to balance this as I have read. Historically Indiana was a slow steady appreciating state, no bubbles here. Although is this a bubble? In the last twenty years we have allowed 60-70 MILLION people into this country, there is a housing shortage, this is not just inflation alone.

 

[Ingomike]

How about moving towards fee for service? It works for groceries, auto/fuel, insurance, utilities, construction, healthcare(in my case), telecom, etc.

Isn’t the property tax a tax on those benefiting from the services? While there certainly have been things added to property taxes that are debatable as to their relationship to property many things are directly related. How does one pay a fee to use the county drainage system?

At the heart of this is that my taxes, at pretty much all levels, do not go for government to protect my rights, or enrich or advance my lot in life. It goes to do those things for individuals and groups who don’t pay taxes and yet are still provided those services regardless of effort, contributions, or legal residency for that matter.

This is the proble.

As anyone can see from my post totals, I usually just read, learn from, and enjoy these discussions from afar. And the truth is I am in 100% agreement with most every post I read from IM. I just had to vent a bit on this topic.

It is a frustrating topic. I just explain things and ask for specific solutions and get called a tax lover and worse. I understand INGO has a a clear majority of us that are independent minded, but I also believe that if many of the things property tax pays for were suddenly gone there would be some shocked people out there, when their neighbor floods their land, claims the property is his, and there is no drainage board to assist in this, there is no court to go to and no deed office to verify ownership…

 

[dudley0]

That's correct. They are exempt.

But why are they exempt when they make money? They show a profit year after year. They also buy properties in the area or are gifted properties and the majority of those come off the tax rolls.

I feel the same way with corporations that move in, build big because they get tax breaks and incentives then move on after the deal reverts back to the regular taxation. Should be a clause where they get the breaks but must remain for a certain period of time after.

 

[Ingomike]

But why are they exempt when they make money? They show a profit year after year. They also buy properties in the area or are gifted properties and the majority of those come off the tax rolls.

How do you know they “show a profit”? I would be shocked if they were anything other than a nonprofit. In answer to your original question they have that tax treatment because they did a better job of defending their constitutional rights to worship without government interference than gun owners did defending the second.

I feel the same way with corporations that move in, build big because they get tax breaks and incentives then move on after the deal reverts back to the regular taxation. Should be a clause where they get the breaks but must remain for a certain period of time after.

Most states are putting clawbacks in the agreements today which is good. There are also minimum numbers of employees to be maintained and other benchmarks to continue to get the breaks.

I am not a fan of these agreements but I also understand that areas generally are either growing or dying, there doesn’t seem to be a middle holding pattern for the long term, so I get why areas do it.

 

[Knight Rider]

Isn’t the property tax a tax on those benefiting from the services? While there certainly have been things added to property taxes that are debatable as to their relationship to property many things are directly related. How does one pay a fee to use the county drainage system?


This is the proble.


It is a frustrating topic. I just explain things and ask for specific solutions and get called a tax lover and worse. I understand INGO has a a clear majority of us that are independent minded, but I also believe that if many of the things property tax pays for were suddenly gone there would be some shocked people out there, when their neighbor floods their land, claims the property is his, and there is no drainage board to assist in this, there is no court to go to and no deed office to verify ownership…

I honestly don’t understand the “drainage board”. My house is on 10 acres of high ground and the woods, pond, and creek are 12 acres of flood plain. I enjoy the nature, but their is zero opportunity to develop or creat a revenue stream beyond possible lumber harvests. Drainage board does nothing for me.

My observations are that drainage ditches service farmers to drain land making it tillable, that would otherwise be swamp or wetlands. They then dump that water into an established creek or river adding to my previously mentioned flood problem.

Maybe farmers pay for the privilege of draining water to their profit in order to flood my downstream land to my detriment. And before we go down the rabbit hole of higher commodity prices, maybe we don’t then sell those drained swamps to big corps to build warehouses or solar farms and actually grow food for us lowly humans. Just a thought. 11 billion Amazon AI hub going in St Joe county on fertile farmland. You think there property taxes will be reducing?

I don’t blame the land owner but zoning means nothing.

 

[Ingomike]

I honestly don’t understand the “drainage board”. My house is on 10 acres of high ground and the woods, pond, and creek are 12 acres of flood plain. I enjoy the nature, but their is zero opportunity to develop or creat a revenue stream beyond possible lumber harvests. Drainage board does nothing for me.

My observations are that drainage ditches service farmers to drain land making it tillable, that would otherwise be swamp or wetlands. They then dump that water into an established creek or river adding to my previously mentioned flood problem.

Maybe farmers pay for the privilege of draining water to their profit in order to flood my downstream land to my detriment. And before we go down the rabbit hole of higher commodity prices, maybe we don’t then sell those drained swamps to big corps to build warehouses or solar farms and actually grow food for us lowly humans. Just a thought. 11 billion Amazon AI hub going in St Joe county on fertile farmland. You think there property taxes will be reducing?

I don’t blame the land owner but zoning means nothing.

Your comments are pretty typical, you state “I honestly don’t understand the “drainage board” and then say “Drainage board does nothing for me“ if you don't know know how can you know they do nothing for you?

First off, I am no expert in the drainage field but I understand the basics, the county is the entity responsible to keep the water flowing in Indiana. Much of the land in Indiana was not as it appears today 250 years ago without this water management, that includes the runoff from your high ground. It is not just about draining lower lying ground it is about managing the flow.

Another erroneous point made is that the added drainage fee pays for the country drainage system, it doesn’t. That drain fee is generally associated with neighborhoods or properties that send their runoff water to the county system, it is a fee charged because the owners took the ability of the land to absorb water by building houses, driveways etc.

 

[Knight Rider]

In my best teenage voice, “whatever”. If it takes $9000 a year from me to support the drainage board for the benefit of all, “you’re welcome”.

 

[Ingomike]

In my best teenage voice, “whatever”. If it takes $9000 a year from me to support the drainage board for the benefit of all, “you’re welcome”.

Sorry I ruined the echo chamber b***h fest with reality. Not…

 

[Knight Rider]

Sorry I ruined the echo chamber b***h fest with reality. Not…

Sorry my actual circumstances didn’t fit your paradigm.

That said, I’m still a big fan of your posts and general philosophy, and I enjoyed spending a few posts above my lot in life.

 

[Lucar186]

Mitch Daniels was governor of Indiana from 2005 - 2013. It is common to refer to a former office holder by the title of the highest office they held.

That makes more sense. I’m assuming he had something to do with the property tax here then? I was 2 when he took office so I wasn’t exactly paying attention.

 

[Ingomike]

That makes more sense. I’m assuming he had something to do with the property tax here then? I was 2 when he took office so I wasn’t exactly paying attention.

It was a mess before then. Two similar properties in the same area could have completely different tax levies, one could be $500 a year and another could be $1500 a year. The Indiana Supreme Court ruled it was unequal and that they must create a more equal system and the current is what they came up with.

A $500,000 house that was 100 years old would be taxed at $1200 a year while a house built in 1995 worth $500,000 was taxed at $4000 a year. What we have now is way better than that. No one expected houses would double in a couple of years which is what is driving the miscontent now.

 

[Ingomike]

Sorry my actual circumstances didn’t fit your paradigm.

That said, I’m still a big fan of your posts and general philosophy, and I enjoyed spending a few posts above my lot in life.

Not sure what is my “paradigm“. I’m just explaining what is…

 

[jamil]

It was a mess before then. Two similar properties in the same area could have completely different tax levies, one could be $500 a year and another could be $1500 a year. The Indiana Supreme Court ruled it was unequal and that they must create a more equal system and the current is what they came up with.

A $500,000 house that was 100 years old would be taxed at $1200 a year while a house built in 1995 worth $500,000 was taxed at $4000 a year. What we have now is way better than that. No one expected houses would double in a couple of years which is what is driving the miscontent now.

Fairer than it was does not mean it’s good. It should not be based on market value.

If I had my druthers, local government and schools should just run bake sales to get their funds. Or they can beg for it. Turn tricks. Sell influence. Whatever. Okay, not really, but there are other ways to raise funds for local governments than to tax people’s property every year.

 

[jamil]

Not sure what is my “paradigm“. I’m just explaining what is…

The paradigm would relate to “ought” the parts of your posts that combine an “ought” with an “is”. Sometimes people just say what “is”, and people confuse that for saying how it ought to be. However, when the “is” is accompanied by an obvious defensive for status quo, it’s also an “ought”.

Ought local governments raise funds by taxing real property? No. If it does raise funds through property taxes should assessments be primarily weighted by market value? No.

 

[dudley0]

How do you know they “show a profit”? I would be shocked if they were anything other than a nonprofit. In answer to your original question they have that tax treatment because they did a better job of defending their constitutional rights to worship without government interference than gun owners did defending the second.

Quick googlefu search brings out 2021 net income at 9.8 million. 2022 net income comes in at 20.3 million. This is from ProPublica non-profit explorer for Indiana.

This isn't about the church on the corner taking donations every Sunday. That place doesn't pay taxes on the one (possibly 2) building(s). This one college is pretty large and adding all the time. They are also buying more property yearly. They do pay property taxes on the places they rent out but when they buy places to convert to dorms or soccer fields or even animal sanctuaries they are not paying taxes on them.

That is the concern (gripe) that I have with it. Not just them as I mentioned we have another in the same county that I know buys properties close to campus and takes them off the tax rolls.

 

[dudley0]

Most states are putting clawbacks in the agreements today which is good. There are also minimum numbers of employees to be maintained and other benchmarks to continue to get the breaks.

I am not a fan of these agreements but I also understand that areas generally are either growing or dying, there doesn’t seem to be a middle holding pattern for the long term, so I get why areas do it.

This is the best news in the entire thread.

 

[Pepi]

FOR SALE ... My home you will never own EVEN if you pay cash for it

 

[dudley0]

FOR SALE ... My home you will never own EVEN if you pay cash for it

I'm interested. Don't be insulted by the offer tho.

 

[firecadet613]

FOR SALE ... My home you will never own EVEN if you pay cash for it

Was that a surprise when you bought it?

 

[KLB]

Was that a surprise when you bought it?

No one said they were surprised by this