Pros and Cons of an AR 11.5" upper

[FireBirdDS]

A good friend of mine is thinking about paying the tax stamp and getting an 11.5" upper for his Bushmaster AR for in home CQ defense. He said he would stick the 11.5" on it for those bumps in the night and go back to his 16" for all other times.

Would like to hear some of the pros, cons and general advice to pass along so he can make the best informed decision..

 

[Fargo]

Pros:
-It is short and handy
-Large ammo capacity in small package
-Still not huge if he puts a can on it

Cons:
-Loud, and I do mean not hearing anything for a long time if you shoot it indoors w/o earpro, loud. (Not counting auditory exclusion from over-adrenalining)
-It is a stamped gun which SOME LEO's and Prosecutors seem to think makes you a criminal per se.
-It is a stamped gun which will be used to try to paint you in a bad light in any sort of lawsuit.
-It costs $200 more.

Personally, if I am going to pay the extra to go SBR, it certainly isn't going to be a Bushy upper. While they make fine parts, I would probably go BCM for that length or LMT if I wanted to go a bit shorter. The gas systems on SBR's are not nearly as forgiving as longer ones and I would want to minimize the chances the thing doesn't work.

Best,

Joe

 

[indyjoe]

I can think of no reason for an 11.5" upper, unless it is a different round than 5.56. 9mm, 300BLK, etc. makes sense. The 5.56 rounds is a lot of noise at short barrel lengths.

 

[rw496]

When I went SBR I was concerned with the loss of velocity in 5.5.6 out of that short of a barrel. I went 6.8spc. There is a good article floating around here somewhere about length and loss of velocity and terminal ballistics in 5.56. I can't remember what the recommended minimum was..maybe someone has the link.

 

[Ryan281]

I have a Bravo Company 11.5 upper and a tax stamp for the lower. I have also had the LMT 10.3 inch upper that started having problems after a flawless 800+ rounds. It turned out to be the extractor and it worked fine until 3500+ rounds, then the same problem. I think SBR's are much more finicky, but my Bravo Company is as reliable as any AR m16 I have used. After much research I would not go shorter than 11.5 at this point and I would not skimp on parts. It is not noticably louder than a 14.5 inch gun. I had to shoot a pit bull with it after it tied to attack a 9 year old boy and his father. The dog was running at me and I shot it in the head at about 10 yards. It never yelped or moved and collapsed on the spot. Soft points expand out of an 11.5 out to 200+ yards. Different story with fmj. The 11.5 is accurate past 400 yards, handy indoors, and from vehicles. It is my preferred AR length. It does everything well and nothing perfect, which is just what I need.

Ryan

 

[OneBadV8]

They are perfect for adding a suppressor. I'm building a slightly shorter one with the suppressor living inside of the quad rail. The barrel & Suppressor total length should be about 14"

I don't want to put that on a 16" gun and have an overall barrel length of 22", that's a long gun to be swinging around on the range or anywhere.

 

[jwfuhrman]

I have a Bravo Company 11.5 upper and a tax stamp for the lower. I have also had the LMT 10.3 inch upper that started having problems after a flawless 800+ rounds. It turned out to be the extractor and it worked fine until 3500+ rounds, then the same problem. I think SBR's are much more finicky, but my Bravo Company is as reliable as any AR m16 I have used. After much research I would not go shorter than 11.5 at this point and I would not skimp on parts. It is not noticably louder than a 14.5 inch gun. I had to shoot a pit bull with it after it tied to attack a 9 year old boy and his father. The dog was running at me and I shot it in the head at about 10 yards. It never yelped or moved and collapsed on the spot. Soft points expand out of an 11.5 out to 200+ yards. Different story with fmj. The 11.5 is accurate past 400 yards, handy indoors, and from vehicles. It is my preferred AR length. It does everything well and nothing perfect, which is just what I need.

Ryan

Got the same upper with the DD MK18 RIS II dark earth rail. Sighted it in for the 36/300 zero, I'm on target on my full size IPSC AR500. My blasting ammo is handloaded 55's and my go to ammo is handloaded 55gr Vmax's

 

[r6vr6]

I love my BCM 11.5" It was really loud with a A2 flash hider but it is extremely violent with my brake installed. I definitely wouldn't want to shoot it indoors without the can on unless you were already deaf. Runs great but it was really over-gassed with the suppressor on until I installed an adjustable gas tube. If your buddy plans on suppressing it I'd recommend some sort of adjustable gas system.

 

[phylodog]

Velocity loss is only an issue with FMJ ammunition (down to 10.5" anyway, I wouldn't go shorter). FMJ ammunition relies on velocity to obtain the desired fragmentation needed for the 5.56 round to be effective. Proper ammo selection eliminates this concern, softpoint ammo can expand similar to HG ammo. Velocity loss could be an issue if relying on ammo to fragment through drywall to prevent over-penetration concerns however.

For home defense I'll take a SBR over a 16"+ any day of the week. Much easier to maneuver in tight spaces and you can approach a doorway or corner with the rifle still in your shoulder without announcing your position with 6" of barrel protruding. Yes they are louder which can be a concern while training but if needed the noise will be the least of my concerns.

I just stepped up from a 10.5" to a 12.5" midlength. I did this to get a slightly longer sight radius, to move my support hand a touch farther out than I was able to with a carbine and the slight but noticeable reduction in muzzle blast didn't hurt either.

 

[sloughfoot]

I know I am not going to change anybody's mind, but a 11.5 inch AR is simply a high powered handgun with a buttstock.

I know SBR's are all the rage because you can look like the guys in the tactical sticks clearing a building. Everybody wants to think they are cool. So do I, but I try to be practical too, as a gun toting civilian.

A 20 inch AR or a 18 inch shotgun are just as easy to manuever through your own home if you get the training to learn how. Some of us have cleared dozens and even hundreds of other peoples buildings with long arms that don't have super short barrels. And we learned how to do it a long time before these shorty rifles became available.

The 11.5 inch barrel makes the maximum effective range pretty short if you need to use it anywhere outdoors too.

I would rather carry a pistol for what the SBR's are purchased for and a real rifle for rifle work.

JMHO.

 

[SmileDocHill]

I don't remember the exact details but at the Appleseed held at Camp Atterbury last go around one guy was shooting a SBR and at 200 yds he wasn't penetrating the cardboard backer. The guys in the pits were having to use their pocket knife to make a hole in order to put the markers in.
I'll restate, I don't know the particulars with the exact length of his barrel, or the ammo he was shooting so this can be a very misleading post....that said, not being able to penetrate the backer at 200 yards is pretty eye opening.

 

[phylodog]

I know I am not going to change anybody's mind, but a 11.5 inch AR is simply a high powered handgun with a buttstock.

And mine serves the same role that the H&K MP5 dominated for years shooting the 9mm round. My 12.5" rifle has better incapacitation capabilities and reduced over-penetration concerns.

I know SBR's are all the rage because you can look like the guys in the tactical sticks clearing a building. Everybody wants to think they are cool. So do I, but I try to be practical too, as a gun toting civilian.

Or they might be all the rage because they fit a specific niche very well.

A 20 inch AR or a 18 inch shotgun are just as easy to manuever through your own home if you get the training to learn how. Some of us have cleared dozens and even hundreds of other peoples buildings with long arms that don't have super short barrels. And we learned how to do it a long time before these shorty rifles became available.

I can walk down my hallway with a broom held up horizontally but it isn't as efficient as something a touch shorter. I don't need the velocity or distance capabilities of an 18" or 20" rifle when anything I'm faced with will be at 12 yards or closer.

The 11.5 inch barrel makes the maximum effective range pretty short if you need to use it anywhere outdoors too.

I've got a different rifle for that role.

I would rather carry a pistol for what the SBR's are purchased for and a real rifle for rifle work.

JMHO.

Just some thoughts.

 

[jwfuhrman]

There are recorded instances of "GOOD" shooters over seas getting kills with an Mk18 Mod 1 at 600+

Its all about knowing your weapon system, and ammo choice. Besides, as long as Im putting rounds on target at 300+, those holes are being put into soft flesh, its still gonna make that target rethink his position.

Couple videos of a guy who has done a **** LOAD of testing with a 10.5in gun and alot of different ammo types lately.


Ammo testing with 10.5in gun at 25/300
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlYJgFkHmj8&hd=1[/ame]


10.5in Gun at 600+
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuQoOc9So5A&hd=1[/ame]


10.5 gun at 700+
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcSSwyfZcy0&hd=1[/ame]

But like you said, your opinion will probably never change, no matter how much proof is put out there.

A 16in gun will do ANYTHING a 20in gun will, and a 10.5in gun is just as effective at normal engagement distances as a 16in gun. Therefore, why have a longer gun, especially if you are gonna put a suppressor on it. A 10.5in gun with a Can is still shorter than a 16in gun with out a can.

 

[malern28us]

I don't remember the exact details but at the Appleseed held at Camp Atterbury last go around one guy was shooting a SBR and at 200 yds he wasn't penetrating the cardboard backer. The guys in the pits were having to use their pocket knife to make a hole in order to put the markers in.
I'll restate, I don't know the particulars with the exact length of his barrel, or the ammo he was shooting so this can be a very misleading post....that said, not being able to penetrate the backer at 200 yards is pretty eye opening.

WOW! Thats really an eye opener!

 

[jwfuhrman]

I don't remember the exact details but at the Appleseed held at Camp Atterbury last go around one guy was shooting a SBR and at 200 yds he wasn't penetrating the cardboard backer. The guys in the pits were having to use their pocket knife to make a hole in order to put the markers in.
I'll restate, I don't know the particulars with the exact length of his barrel, or the ammo he was shooting so this can be a very misleading post....that said, not being able to penetrate the backer at 200 yards is pretty eye opening.

Theres something big time wrong then, because I shoot my 11.5in gun with 55gr XM193 duplicate handloads at 400 regularly and I have no problem getting thru cardboard, or making a Flash Target swing and signal.

 

[malern28us]

There are recorded instances of "GOOD" shooters over seas getting kills with an Mk18 Mod 1 at 600+

Its all about knowing your weapon system, and ammo choice. Besides, as long as Im putting rounds on target at 300+, those holes are being put into soft flesh, its still gonna make that target rethink his position.

Couple videos of a guy who has done a **** LOAD of testing with a 10.5in gun and alot of different ammo types lately.


Ammo testing with 10.5in gun at 25/300
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlYJgFkHmj8&hd=1


10.5in Gun at 600+
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuQoOc9So5A&hd=1


10.5 gun at 700+
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcSSwyfZcy0&hd=1

But like you said, your opinion will probably never change, no matter how much proof is put out there.

A 16in gun will do ANYTHING a 20in gun will, and a 10.5in gun is just as effective at normal engagement distances as a 16in gun. Therefore, why have a longer gun, especially if you are gonna put a suppressor on it. A 10.5in gun with a Can is still shorter than a 16in gun with out a can.

Um, I was always under the impression that it is illegal to shoot over a body of water. Am I wrong?

 

[jwfuhrman]

nope, plus thats Alabama

 

[sloughfoot]

Just some thoughts.

I know I won't change your mind. I accept that.

But I have NEVER searched a building with the barrel horizontal to the ground. There is a technique that is used to defeat the ambusher waiting for that long or short barrel to appear in the doorway. And it does not include barrel up or straight forward.

I won't talk much more about that on this forum.

You guys buy your SBR's but I will continue to believe that they cause more problems for the user than they solve.

Smiledochill, it was a 11.5 inch AR shooting steel case 55 grain. I think it was Wolf. It was bouncing off the backer at 200 yards. And it was the vast majority of rounds. It was not isolated instances.

 

[jwfuhrman]

Smiledochill, it was a 11.5 inch AR shooting steel case 55 grain. I think it was Wolf. It was bouncing off the backer at 200 yards. And it was the vast majority of rounds. It was not isolated instances.

Wolf Steel Case 55gr is under powered from anything. Doesn't surprise me it wasn't doing anything at 200.

Read into this:

Getting the most out of your 5.56 SBR rifle with pricey .223 "hunting ammo".... - M4Carbine.net Forums

 

[phylodog]

I know I won't change your mind. I accept that.

But I have NEVER searched a building with the barrel horizontal to the ground. There is a technique that is used to defeat the ambusher waiting for that long or short barrel to appear in the doorway. And it does not include barrel up or straight forward.

I won't talk much more about that on this forum.

You guys buy your SBR's but I will continue to believe that they cause more problems for the user than they solve.

Smiledochill, it was a 11.5 inch AR shooting steel case 55 grain. I think it was Wolf. It was bouncing off the backer at 200 yards. And it was the vast majority of rounds. It was not isolated instances.

I don't go into buildings with the barrel of my rifle much below eye level and more often than not I'm looking through the sights. If I'm using a handgun the same applies. I don't really do a lot of searching in the traditional sense however (forced entry, possible burglar inside).

I used a 10.5" barrel for 7 years before moving up to the 12.5" recently. I've experienced no problems to date.