Question for our LEO members- when did shooting though your own windshield become an approved action?

[Gabriel]

Here's another issue on the idea of "boring a hole" in a widshield Most BGs aren't going to stand still while you drill a hole in one part of a windshield. They do move.

Plus all those rounds do go somewhere, so you aren't just opening a space for accurate rounds. You're putting rounds out into the world while you're doing it.

 

[ECS686]

The conversation was 20 years ago, so...

So... What's ideal today for that situation

The conversation was 20 years ago, so...

So... What's ideal today for that situation?

Not to get off topic but, for a civilian just trying to get out of trouble I'd say very few scenerios. For LE a little wider possibility but I can't answer for any agency as each has SOPs.

Across the board though I would advise against FMJ in any circumstances (unless covid unavailability dictates otherwise) Any quality manufacturer standard weight will be fine. Especially any of the bonded Gold Dot HST etc. Yes back in the day lawmen were very successful with lead RN 38s but modern ammo is much improved

As far as the windshield theory Unless your kicking in doors for a living I wouldn't dwell on that specific scenerio Sure have an idea what usually happens in case (like a plan J) but in the realm of reality it just doesn't happen to normal Joe's on a normal basis

And you can always go to a class by a vetted instructor that has agency training or Military experience.

 

[Kutnupe14]

When? Day one.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

For better or worse, this is why the first half of my mags are always loaded with FMJ. Years ago a buddy raised the point that someone very realistically could be trying to run me down with a car and if I need to shoot them through the windshield I wanted to make sure it was going to make good holes in the glass and not skip off.

No clue if there's a real basis to that in science, but, still feels better in my mind than a JHP into a windshield.

Having seen a lot of people shot through car bodies and glass, FMJ is less effective than bonded JHP by a large margin. It skips easier off both glass and metal. It deflects more. It deforms and fragments a *lot* more. You end up losing so much weight and the fragments move at near random that you're vastly less likely to get a disabling hit.

Windshield testing is part of the FBI battery for a reason. An approved barrier blind JHP load is as good as you'll do without going to a shotgun slug.

 

[JTL165]

Respectfully that is antiquated info. FMJ or Bonded will do the same deflection as the example I shared a few posts ago. And bonded ammo has really upped the performance of what we had 30 years ago.

Here's another issue on the idea of "boring a hole" in a widshield Most BGs aren't going to stand still while you drill a hole in one part of a windshield. They do move.

Respectfully that is antiquated info. FMJ or Bonded will do the same deflection as the example I shared a few posts ago. And bonded ammo has really upped the performance of what we had 30 years ago.

Here's another issue on the idea of "boring a hole" in a widshield Most BGs aren't going to stand still while you drill a hole in one part of a windshield. They do move.

Clear on BG moving but you can still work the same port as you move inside the vehicle if shooting out. Also not the perfect way just the best way that I know of.

 

[JTL165]

Plus all those rounds do go somewhere, so you aren't just opening a space for accurate rounds. You're putting rounds out into the world while you're doing it.

This is a fact.
Same as any other time you pull the trigger you've got to account for your environment.

 

[EyeCarry]

Problem solved:

 

[Angrysauce]

I was a FLETC certified Firearms instructor before I retired and yes there is deflection. Below is one of the training slides I can share.

Bottom line there's no good way to shoot through a barrier.

View attachment 133666

Good thing about glass though. If you pull the trigger a few times, you're not shooting through a barrier anymore.

 

[churchmouse]

Problem solved:

Watch Jay Leno's video right after the F-16.

 

[bcsatch]

Former OSP Trooper...absolutely trained on scenarios where you "got stuck in the car" via an ambush type situation. Rounds are just as effective through glass.

 

[JTL165]

Former OSP Trooper...absolutely trained on scenarios where you "got stuck in the car" via an ambush type situation. Rounds are just as effective through glass.

If we are calling effective accurate and terminally the same as not being fired through glass then evidence says this is false.
Accuracy, velocity, and expansion are all negatively impacted by glass. Glass type, entry angle, and round type are all variables.

 

[bcsatch]

If we are calling effective accurate and terminally the same as not being fired through glass then evidence says this is false.
Accuracy, velocity, and expansion are all negatively impacted by glass. Glass type, entry angle, and round type are all variables.

I’m just saying we trained to not be apprehensive about cutting loose through glass.

 

[JTL165]

I’m just saying we trained to not be apprehensive about cutting loose through glass.

I'm on board with that!

 

[chubbs]

I had the pleasure of taking in centerfuge's Vehicle CQB. This is covered a bunch, awesome to see the trajectory changes and such.

 

[STEEL CORE]

Anybody remember back in the mid 90's our training went like this, it was grab seat release, slam yourself backward, draw your Glock-22, and fire through the missing training Crown Vic front window, thinking , what if you were left handed, or had seat belt hang up misfortune, or Rick O Shea visited you at the same time ?!?
Those were the days..............training, I never had to do it except at the range, but that was back in Eagle Creek range days, God we had fun, with Fry and Golgart and at the FT Harrison range too before that.

 

[Amishman44]

I would have to try that tactic first with a old car to see if it works ? PS wear safety glasses.

Been there...done that...worked with a law enforcement buddy of mine when he was working to build an argument to take to his Captain to switch away from 9mm to .40 S&W or, his preferred, .45 acp, for their sidearm duty caliber.
It was amazing the number of different 9mm bullets (weight, FMJ, JHP, velocity, etc.) wouldn't even penetrate a windshield, given different variables such as distance, angle, velocity, etc.
We fired a couple thousand rounds including 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 acp, etc. Multiple defensive shooting set-ups, including windshield testing during the automotive phase of the testing.
The results were sufficient or significant enough difference for the Chief to make the switch to .40 S&W caliber.
Note: this was 20 some years ago...

 

[Amishman44]

I’m just saying we trained to not be apprehensive about cutting loose through glass.

Sometimes, knowing what one's options are is just as valuable as knowing what one's regulations or limitations are...but it's the education process that builds knowledge, which can lead to improved responses or contribute to one's safety!