RANT?: Fundamentals? This got me thinking!

[Booya]

This thread got me thinking...

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/general_firearms_discussion/199830-this_is_every_ar15_owner-2.html

This and several other threads recently have me really wondering if we're raising a generation of shooter that are so geared out that they're not using their gear to increase their shooting ability, but rather do most of the shooting for them!

I keep seeing threads about people "reaching out" with their AR's to huge distances like 250 - 300 yards! All the while with a 1-9X scope!? I'm no sniper, but I am a Marine. I'm hitting my target 8/9 outta 10 times with irons at 500 yards. I'm not bustin chops here (or don't mean to be), but I really think you anyone who thinks their AR is their "go to" or "SHTF" gun they should be able to shoot kill shots at 300 yards without batting an eye in several positions, without a scope!

FUNDAMENTALS! I know everyone on the internet is a full blown SERT/ERT/SPECOPS/SOCOM operator, but C'mon, what are a these guys going to do when their 10X scope breaks? Have we lost sight of the fundamentals? Trigger control, natural respiratory pause, sight alignment, sight picture, natural POA...etc.

I say before you spend that $300-$1200 on top of the line optics, spend it on some ammo and training. Not sure the point at all of this post, I suppose I'll put RANT in the title now. Am I the only one seeing this? I guess I just can't keep my mouth shut (fingers still) anymore.

 

[bullfrog4ever]

Semper Fi! I agree, especially all the new recruits in the Corps are training with the acog on the KD course!? I was so shocked to hear that, as I, like you were trained 100% on irons, on the KD course and table 1&2 when they first started it, and we didn't call them backup sights either! I find it hilarious when people say 100-200 yards is a long shot for the AR, when we were doing 500 yard iron sights and they're capable of much longer shots too. I saw a Marine range coach make a 500 yard standing shot and hit!! That's utilizing fundementals right there.
The acog almost seems like cheating though. When I build my AR (hopefully this year) it will have the standard front sight and a standard rear sight(just without the carry handle) and will utilize it too. Although I will have an acog, I will still be able to take my shots from the same distances we did in the Corps with irons. I agree there are many people who won't have a clue of what to do when their red dot breaks and the can't take a 300 yard shot with thier BUS... YMMV though...

 

[SteveL]

I don't know much about weapons and their accessories, but I do appreciate your viewpoint.....good post. I'm here to learn and I need more info like this.
Thanks

Meant to quote original post by Booya

 

[kmshooter]

Booya,

I agree with you. IMO, to be a good shooter, you have to understand the basics.

In our 4-H Shooting Sports Program, we only allow open sights, whether it is the standard irons, or peep sights. We have 420+ kids in our program. Because time is limited with each kid, we do our best to help them along their way to become shooters. Some kids are in it for the fun, while others are in it to become marksmen.

With that said, I give private lessons, with the help of 2 other instructors, (for free) to any of our 4-H kids. Our first lesson with any shooter starts on a bench with sight alignment and sight picture. Then we progress to trigger control and breathing. After that, we let them start shooting. (We use a spotting scope so we can give instant feedback after each shot.) After about 10 shots, we have the kids get their targets and this becomes a baseline. We review the target with them. If there are no groups, we repeat the basics again. If we see groups, we proceed to positions.

The first thing we do is make sure the positions are correct and let them shoot 10 shots. We then explain Natural Point of Aim and demonstrate by having them take aim at the target and then close their eyes. We move the barrel around. We tell them to take aim and then have them open their eyes. We have them adjust body position and repeat. When they are on target after opening their eyes, we have them shoot 10 more shots. The kids are amazed at how much tighter their groups are on the second target. We do this for all the positions.

The smiles on their faces is what makes instructing youth so rewarding.

Sorry this is so long, I just wanted to provide some supporting material for why the basics are so important.

 

[sloughfoot]

You gotta love a Marine. My best friend is a Marine. His wife is a LTC of Marines. They are both almost 80 years old. Of course retired, but still and always, Marines..... Neither one will tolerate a fool. Dave and I faced off against the Mexican army together with our M1A, M1 and 1911's.

What you say is totally valid, but if you read the posts on all these forums, the kids want gear not riflemans skills.

Don't stroke out, they just do not understand. Hopefully, they will learn riflemans skills before it is too late. At least they have a rifle???

Good post...

 

[JohnP82]

I fully agree with the OP. Sure all the cutting edge goodies are cool and can serve a purpose, but nothing beats basic fundamentals! Like the OP said, gotta know what to do when that expensive gadget goes down.

 

[ATM]

...Have we lost sight of the fundamentals? Trigger control, natural respiratory pause, sight alignment, sight picture, natural POA...etc.

I say before you spend that $300-$1200 on top of the line optics, spend it on some ammo and training.

Yep.

For far less than the low end of that price range, one could afford 500 rounds of .223 and attend an Appleseed weekend covering these rifle fundamentals and much more.

Stuff is cool, but investing in yourself is what continues to pay the highest dividends.

 

[NIFT]

You gotta love a Marine. My best friend is a Marine. His wife is a LTC of Marines. They are both almost 80 years old. Of course retired, but still and always, Marines..... Neither one will tolerate a fool. Dave and I faced off against the Mexican army together with our M1A, M1 and 1911's.

What you say is totally valid, but if you read the posts on all these forums, the kids want gear not riflemans skills.

Don't stroke out, they just do not understand. Hopefully, they will learn riflemans skills before it is too late. At least they have a rifle???

Good post...

Fundamentals?
We ain't got no fundamentals.
We don't need no stinking fundamentals!

 

[Sirshredalot]

Would LOVE to be able to do that...but I cant SEE 500 yards let alone shoot anything there....hmm...maybe lasik.

I dont have a scope on anything I own though...and love shooting clays at 100+ yards with a rifle.

God bless
-Shred

 

[tenring]

One shot, one kill!

 

[superjoe76]

I have a 3-9x scope on mine, but I still have irons just in case. In fact the next time I shoot it, I am going to use just irons to get them sighted in.

Pretty sure you and I have shared the same range during Qualifications!

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I keep seeing threads about people "reaching out" with their AR's to huge distances like 250 - 300 yards! All the while with a 1-9X scope!?

Yes as most shooting, even with carbines and rifles, is done inside 25 yards most people have no frame of reference beyond this.

Have we lost sight of the fundamentals?

Well, the culture does not teach it.

Heck, look at all the rifles sold at the gun shops without iron sights. Look at all the pictured rifles on INGO without slings. The gun mags do not teach fundamentals, the articles are all about the latest silly thing to bolt on to your gun.

Education is expensive and time consuming. It is hard to touch a class, it is easy to touch the Brownell's catalogue.

 

[db1959]

Very true, Booya. Your statements can apply to almost anything in life and one that comes to mind is golf. How many of you here play golf and know someone who spends $500 and the newest driver but still cant hit the ball straight?

My rule of thumb on anything you want to improve on is take lessons, learn and practice.

 

[iChokePeople]

I keep seeing threads about people "reaching out" with their AR's to huge distances like 250 - 300 yards! All the while with a 1-9X scope!? I'm no sniper, but I am a Marine. I'm hitting my target 8/9 outta 10 times with irons at 500 yards. I'm not bustin chops here (or don't mean to be), but I really think you anyone who thinks their AR is their "go to" or "SHTF" gun they should be able to shoot kill shots at 300 yards without batting an eye in several positions, without a scope!

You forgot to mention "without a dead rest", unless things have changed since... well, back when I was young.

 

[cbseniour]

BO YAA
I agree entirely. I have found myself being concerned about the same thing. I use a scope anymore because my eyes aren't what they once were but I've stated on this forum that as a young man in the army 400 yard shots with an m14 or M16 were not at all uncommon.
Gotta learn the basics before you add optics.

 

[Fergy35]

First of all - Thank you for your service!

That's a timely post. I was in one of the local gun stores yesterday afternoon and there was this younger guy with his girlfriend looking at an AR with an EOTech and a 3X magnifier and a flashlight and whatever else they could fit on it. Then I heard him say he already has one set up "just like it". All I could think was whether or not he could actually use the darn thing of if he just liked to show it off and talk about how much he spent on it.

Yes, I know I was being a bit cynical, but I have been thinking a lot lately about how optics are great and all, but people really should know the basics.

 

[dom1104]

This is the truth.

I my eyes almost rolled back yesterday when someone said he needed a new "LONG RANGE" gun because the AR15 he already had couldnt possibly shoot "out to" 500 yards.

 

[henry0reilly]

Had a young man with his parents at the gun counter the other day and he wanted a scope for his .22. I asked him if he was printing good groups with the open sights and he mumbled a reply. I explained to him that scope would not make him a better shot.

 

[Booya]

So many quality posts here to quote I don't know where to start. I'm glad I'm not the only one to feel this way.

 

[rugertoter]

This thread got me thinking...

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ussion/199830-this_is_every_ar15_owner-2.html

This and several other threads recently have me really wondering if we're raising a generation of shooter that are so geared out that they're not using their gear to increase their shooting ability, but rather do most of the shooting for them!

I keep seeing threads about people "reaching out" with their AR's to huge distances like 250 - 300 yards! All the while with a 1-9X scope!? I'm no sniper, but I am a Marine. I'm hitting my target 8/9 outta 10 times with irons at 500 yards. I'm not bustin chops here (or don't mean to be), but I really think you anyone who thinks their AR is their "go to" or "SHTF" gun they should be able to shoot kill shots at 300 yards without batting an eye in several positions, without a scope!

FUNDAMENTALS! I know everyone on the internet is a full blown SERT/ERT/SPECOPS/SOCOM operator, but C'mon, what are a these guys going to do when their 10X scope breaks? Have we lost sight of the fundamentals? Trigger control, natural respiratory pause, sight alignment, sight picture, natural POA...etc.

I say before you spend that $300-$1200 on top of the line optics, spend it on some ammo and training. Not sure the point at all of this post, I suppose I'll put RANT in the title now. Am I the only one seeing this? I guess I just can't keep my mouth shut (fingers still) anymore.

I agree 100%! I earned my 3rd award bar for my expert badge - all without a scope. I'm not very fancy or gear happy myself, kinda a low speed and high drag sorta guy who likes to hit his target without all the gadgets. JMHO.