Ready Positions: Muzzle Up vs Muzzle Down

[Jackson]

I would like to point out that while many of the training institutes on this site are very good for the purpose they serve. The over all lack of real world experience limits there knowledge to what they have been taught. Naturally they will teach there students to the level they were taught at or what they feel is the best way for a layman to carry.

Is that to say that, because of your experience, and not being a 'layman', you would find no value in non-military firearms training? You mentioned these institutes were "good for the purpose they serve". What purpose is that? In your view, what are the shortcomings? What purposes are they not serving?

You also have to take into consideration that in the military particularly in the combat arms. Infantry, Cavalry, Armored, Spec Ops etc. We carry weapons any time we train. When deployed they are with us 24/7. The military trains us to carry in varying ways for different ways for varying situation. We train over and over again so much of what we do is muscle memory. This can't be learned in a two or three or even a week long course. It must be practiced over and over again.

Its interesting you are comparing the relative level of gun handling between military non-military folks. Some of the worst (and some of the best) gun handling I've seen has been out of military or former-military people. My point is that it varies pretty widely.

I've also seen some very good gun handling out of people with zero military experience. I would argue it comes down to the indivdual moreso than their background. People who are serious about their training, military or otherwise, will train to a higher level than those who are not serious about it.

Most of the people I know who are very serious about training and practice have never been in the military. They train to make themselves safer. They commit significant personal time, money and resources to becoming better, safer, and more effective. They carry their firearm every day. It may not be an M240, but they handle guns on a daily basis. Most of them pratice and train daily or weekly. They exhibit a high level of commitment to this. Don't dismiss it.

[---I have much respect for our military and former-military folks on the board. I have never been in the military and I don't pretend to understand those experiences. I don't want this to come off as anything that contradicts that. ---]

 

[Westside]

John has a thing for sailors.

 

[wrnyhuise]

Jackson I don't think anybody dismisses civilian training or the dedication of some. We were simply speaking upon our experiences. I have met some people who have never been military or LE and you are right there are some that have done amazing getting to levels higher than alot of military i have known i won't deny that. I personally think the only shortcomings in civilian courses or training is the lack of total time an instructor will have with you before you are back on your own. That doesn't always work with everyone. I also think that while there are soem great courses out there real world experience and knowledge is extremely valuable, and that does not get learned on a range or course. I think courses are great to get people going and to develop some good habits and technique. That creates safe reliable shooters no doubt.

 

[Jackson]

wrnyhuise, how do you feel about FoF training to make up some of that experience gap? Worthwhile?

 

[iChokePeople]

I also think that while there are soem great courses out there real world experience and knowledge is extremely valuable, and that does not get learned on a range or course.

Describe "real world". I think we have at least two definitions in play here.

 

[rhino]

I voted "varies depending on the situation," but in general, any "ready" position I use is probably going to default to something with the muzzle pointed below parallel.

This may be heresy, but I consider Position Sul to be more administrative than a ready position. It's a way to tuck your gun into the least dangerous direction when you need to do it, but you're going to be going to some other position (at least in transition) before you can fire any rounds.

I view most of the muzzle up positions to also be administrative because you can't really shoot until you bring the muzzle rotate downward significantly. This is not true of ready positions with the muzzle depressed, since there are a lot more options/potential needs for shooting between straight down and horizontal.

 

[Jackson]

This may be heresy, but I consider Position Sul to be more administrative than a ready position. It's a way to tuck your gun into the least dangerous direction when you need to do it, but you're going to be going to some other position (at least in transition) before you can fire any rounds.

I view most of the muzzle up positions to also be administrative because you can't really shoot until you bring the muzzle rotate downward significantly. This is not true of ready positions with the muzzle depressed, since there are a lot more options/potential needs for shooting between straight down and horizontal.

This is a distinction I didn't make, but considered. I didn't have a name for the category that includes Sul and Muzzle-Up. We could define "ready position" as a position to keep the firearm, while not sighted in on target, but from which you could fire if necessary. Those positions could include a compressed ready, maybe a low ready, though I don't think many shoot from low ready, position 2 of drawstroke, retention position, etc.

Then we could define a whole second class of positions that might be defined as administrative positions used to avoid muzzling things/people unnecessarily, or to perform manipulations with the wepaon. These would include muzzle-up, "covert ready" with gun behind the back or leg, position Sul, and any other from which you could not fire.

The main point of this post was to discuss the reasons for and against muzzle up positions. So I lumped all typically non-firing gun positions in to "ready positions" for the purposes of conversation. These would include Sul, Muzzle-up, Muzzle-averted compressed ready, compressed ready, position 2, position two with muzzle down, low ready, and all sorts of variations.

I also primarily meant for administrative tasks. Basically a discussion of Sul vs Muzzle-Up is what I expected from the thread.

 

[cedartop]

I voted "varies depending on the situation," but in general, any "ready" position I use is probably going to default to something with the muzzle pointed below parallel.

This may be heresy, but I consider Position Sul to be more administrative than a ready position. It's a way to tuck your gun into the least dangerous direction when you need to do it, but you're going to be going to some other position (at least in transition) before you can fire any rounds.

I view most of the muzzle up positions to also be administrative because you can't really shoot until you bring the muzzle rotate downward significantly. This is not true of ready positions with the muzzle depressed, since there are a lot more options/potential needs for shooting between straight down and horizontal.

To avoid any extra conflict, I am just going to go with this answer.

 

[Jackson]

To avoid any extra conflict, I am just going to go with this answer.

I was hoping for some amount of conflict when I started the thread. Lets have the real answer. :-)

 

[nascarfantoo]

Typically, muzzle down for me. I will submit that muzzle up is preferred in boats. I am not, however, generally in a small boat. Operating a firearm is an inherently dangerous proposition. It is all about mitigating the danger. If I use a muzzle up position, I have no idea where an ND will end up. If I'm in a stack and the person behind me stumbles, I would prefer they shoot me in the leg or foot as opposed to my head.

I remembered John's preferences from one of ACT's training sessions. Ever since I have been training that way, but could see that it is situational.

 

[Shay]

I use both muzzle up and muzzle down positions depending on the situation.

 

[jblomenberg16]

Like others, I could click the "it varies on the situation" button. What I find myself using the most though is Sul.

I'll agree with Rhino, it is a bit administrative at times, but keeps the gun in close where I can then transition to a more appropriate ready position, or directly to a firing position.

I also carry my carbine in a 2 point sling that positions the grip in a similar position to where my pistol would be going position Sul. Clearly it can't be handled exactly the same way, but in general my strong hand is in roughly the same location on my body with either.

 

[Jackson]

So noone hates muzzle up? Usually just the mention of muzzle up gun handling brings out the haters and the name callers, or at least a group telling me never to use it because of XYZ. It must not be as controvercial as it used to be.

 

[Shay]

So noone hates muzzle up? Usually just the mention of muzzle up gun handling brings out the haters and the name callers, or at least a group telling me never to use it because of XYZ. It must not be as controvercial as it used to be.

We call that "progress".

 

[Sailor]

I like muzzle up, gun is in the normal position I use to change mags, and clear malfunctions and less likely to have leg sweeps during drills.

 

[shooter521]

Yes (for me).

And for me, too.

I will also say I tend to use muzzle-up more with long guns than with handguns.

So noone hates muzzle up?

I'm sure there are those who do (you can find people on INGO who hate any given thing), but they may not be responding for a variety of reasons. Not least of which is that this is the TnT subforum, which tends to attract a more... er... "select" group of members.

 

[andski3]

Well I accidently voted for muzzle, meant to hit low ready. D'oh!

 

[AD Marc]

We formerly taught muzzle up as the default position and still use it in certain situations, but have since moved towards a more discreet position that is really isn't any of the above for our threat scan. Straight arm, flagged thumb indexed on the outseam of the pants. You can see it at the end of our drawstroke video. We'll probably do a video on muzzle aversion positions shortly covering some of the benefits and drawbacks of each.

 

[Shay]

We formerly taught muzzle up as the default position and still use it in certain situations, but have since moved towards a more discreet position that is really isn't any of the above for our threat scan. Straight arm, flagged thumb indexed on the outseam of the pants. You can see it at the end of our drawstroke video. We'll probably do a video on muzzle aversion positions shortly covering some of the benefits and drawbacks of each.

I teach this as well. It's very useful.

 

[bkflyer]

Why would you have muzzle down in a helicopter? You know where the fuel is carried?