Reason Magazine openly advocates forced vaccination

[88GT]

So where is the proof that you're better off without being vaccinated?

Straw man. We aren't discussing the efficacy of vaccines or whether or not vaxing is better than not vaxing. Spend some time of a mothering forum or a pregnancy/childbirth forum and find out just how common reactions to vaxes are.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

Straw man. We aren't discussing the efficacy of vaccines or whether or not vaxing is better than not vaxing. Spend some time of a mothering forum or a pregnancy/childbirth forum and find out just how common reactions to vaxes are.

Exactly.

Regardless of any study that suggests (or proves) that vaccines provide an overall benefit to the health of our population. The question is do we think it's a good idea to force people to do things that they don't want to do, because we've decided that doing that thing is in their own (or society's) best interest?

Has the benefit of vaccines for society been credibly quantified? And have the risks to the individual? If so, does the benefit for society outweigh the risk to the individual? Do we think it's acceptable to impose ANY risk to individuals for the (possible or perceived) benefit of society? And, does that mean we can agree on some kind of baseline of acceptable risk to individuals for the benefit of society so that it can be applied in other debates?

 

[MisterChester]

Perhaps I got a little off track. I am not in favor of forced vaccinations, but I will judge you harshly as a parent that won't vaccinate their children. For me personally, I'd rather have a child become autistic from a vax (allegedly, supposedly, perhaps) than have him or her die from a disease of which there is a vax for. Some will say "but misterchester its liek realy not gonna happen wut r the chances lol!!" Well I say, how do you know that? Can you guarantee that? How do you know some guy who wasn't vaccinated gets within arms reach of my kid in a store or something while contagious? Quite frankly I think I sound more "motherly" than some 1st time mothers on a forum who say "Well Sarah Palin said it was bad so I think it's bad too!" Yeah, go ahead and make your choice. At least be informed and smart when it comes to your offspring.

/endrant

 

[Prometheus]

Straw man. We aren't discussing the efficacy of vaccines or whether or not vaxing is better than not vaxing. Spend some time of a mothering forum or a pregnancy/childbirth forum and find out just how common reactions to vaxes are.

That's an excellent point, for those of us in health care who are paying attention, it's not something to sneeze at.

Forcibly requiring vaccinations is something I am completely against, regardless of how effective they are and some are quite effective IMO. The influenza vaccine certainly not being one them, lol.

On the other side, some are quite harmful, we are seeing the wide spread side effects of Gardasil right now and right here in the midwest.

We also see certain vaccine manufactures being granted immunity from prosecution for certain vaccines. Only a true fool would want forced vaccinations and blanket immunity from prosecution for the companies that make them.

 

[jamil]

Perhaps I got a little off track. I am not in favor of forced vaccinations, but I will judge you harshly as a parent that won't vaccinate their children. For me personally, I'd rather have a child become autistic from a vax (allegedly, supposedly, perhaps) than have him or her die from a disease of which there is a vax for. Some will say "but misterchester its liek realy not gonna happen wut r the chances lol!!" Well I say, how do you know that? Can you guarantee that? How do you know some guy who wasn't vaccinated gets within arms reach of my kid in a store or something while contagious? Quite frankly I think I sound more "motherly" than some 1st time mothers on a forum who say "Well Sarah Palin said it was bad so I think it's bad too!" Yeah, go ahead and make your choice. At least be informed and smart when it comes to your offspring.

/endrant

You can judge all you want, and I can extend my middle finger in your general direction and admonish you to mind your own ****ing business.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Vaccines are for the weak

 

[steveh_131]

Perhaps I got a little off track. I am not in favor of forced vaccinations, but I will judge you harshly as a parent that won't vaccinate their children. For me personally, I'd rather have a child become autistic from a vax (allegedly, supposedly, perhaps) than have him or her die from a disease of which there is a vax for. Some will say "but misterchester its liek realy not gonna happen wut r the chances lol!!" Well I say, how do you know that? Can you guarantee that? How do you know some guy who wasn't vaccinated gets within arms reach of my kid in a store or something while contagious? Quite frankly I think I sound more "motherly" than some 1st time mothers on a forum who say "Well Sarah Palin said it was bad so I think it's bad too!" Yeah, go ahead and make your choice. At least be informed and smart when it comes to your offspring.

/endrant

I am not entirely anti-vaccine, but I know a lot of people who are, or who are very cautious about them. Not a single one is cautious because "Sarah Palin said it was bad". Most of them have encyclopedic knowledge of the risks of both sides of the debate.

On the other hand, most pro-vaccine people know of a single study by a single scientist that has supposedly been discredited, and that is the extent of their knowledge on the subject. "Well the CDC said it's good so I think it's good too!"

I suspect that you have little experience with autism, if you'd rather risk that than a case of polio or measles.

 

[Bunnykid68]

From the CDC's website.

From 1980-1999 there were 162 confirmed cases of paralytic polio cases reported.

Of the 162 cases 8 were acquired from outside the USA the other 154 were caused by the oral vaccine itself. Seems the vaccine was the most prolific way of obtaining Polio during that 19 years. Seems like enough evidence to me to raise a few questions.

Vaccines: VPD-VAC/Polio/Disease FAQs

 

[88GT]

Perhaps I got a little off track. I am not in favor of forced vaccinations, but I will judge you harshly as a parent that won't vaccinate their children. For me personally, I'd rather have a child become autistic from a vax (allegedly, supposedly, perhaps) than have him or her die from a disease of which there is a vax for. Some will say "but misterchester its liek realy not gonna happen wut r the chances lol!!" Well I say, how do you know that? Can you guarantee that? How do you know some guy who wasn't vaccinated gets within arms reach of my kid in a store or something while contagious? Quite frankly I think I sound more "motherly" than some 1st time mothers on a forum who say "Well Sarah Palin said it was bad so I think it's bad too!" Yeah, go ahead and make your choice. At least be informed and smart when it comes to your offspring.

/endrant

You asked what the proof was that someone was better off not being vaccinated. Then you tell us that we need to be informed. How about this? What if the risk of contracting the disease and dying from it were lower than the risk of an adverse reaction to the vaccine for that disease? Would that qualify as being better off without being vaccinated? Did you know that there are only 100 deaths per year for chicken pox? Did you know that there are 14 deaths per year from the vaccine? Did you know that more than half of the deaths from the disease are in adults? Did you know that vaccinations only provide temporary immunity and adults can catch it if exposed? Did you know that vaccinations don't provide 100% protection? The chicken pox vaccine is only about 44% effective at preventing the disease. Did you know that the disease provides lifetime immunity?

If I don't vaccinate my child for chicken pox, he has about a 0.1% chance of dying from it. If I do, he has a 56% chance of catching it anyway, likely as an adult where the risk of severity and death is greater.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

You asked what the proof was that someone was better off not being vaccinated. Then you tell us that we need to be informed. How about this? What if the risk of contracting the disease and dying from it were lower than the risk of an adverse reaction to the vaccine for that disease? Would that qualify as being better off without being vaccinated? Did you know that there are only 100 deaths per year for chicken pox? Did you know that there are 14 deaths per year from the vaccine? Did you know that more than half of the deaths from the disease are in adults? Did you know that vaccinations only provide temporary immunity and adults can catch it if exposed? Did you know that vaccinations don't provide 100% protection? The chicken pox vaccine is only about 44% effective at preventing the disease. Did you know that the disease provides lifetime immunity?

If I don't vaccinate my child for chicken pox, he has about a 0.1% chance of dying from it. If I do, he has a 56% chance of catching it anyway, likely as an adult where the risk of severity and death is greater.

Kinda on point here but a question...We've seen those ads on TV that tell us if we've had chicken pox, we stand a greater likelihood of contracting shingles. Does taking the chicken pox vaccine similarly make one susceptible to shingles?

 

[jamil]

Kinda on point here but a question...We've seen those ads on TV that tell us if we've had chicken pox, we stand a greater likelihood of contracting shingles. Does taking the chicken pox vaccine similarly make one susceptible to shingles?

I just looked it up on the CDC website. Too much a PITA to post the link on my iPhone so you can look it up if you want. The cdc says in rare cases the vaccine can cause shingles.

 

[MisterChester]

You asked what the proof was that someone was better off not being vaccinated. Then you tell us that we need to be informed. How about this? What if the risk of contracting the disease and dying from it were lower than the risk of an adverse reaction to the vaccine for that disease? Would that qualify as being better off without being vaccinated? Did you know that there are only 100 deaths per year for chicken pox? Did you know that there are 14 deaths per year from the vaccine? Did you know that more than half of the deaths from the disease are in adults? Did you know that vaccinations only provide temporary immunity and adults can catch it if exposed? Did you know that vaccinations don't provide 100% protection? The chicken pox vaccine is only about 44% effective at preventing the disease. Did you know that the disease provides lifetime immunity?

If I don't vaccinate my child for chicken pox, he has about a 0.1% chance of dying from it. If I do, he has a 56% chance of catching it anyway, likely as an adult where the risk of severity and death is greater.

That's a pretty big what if scenario. In the end, it's a big numbers game. There are a lot of variables to be considered. Okay, let's say for instance you had a better chance of getting an adverse reaction than catching it and dying. What are these effects? Is it comparable to an allergy or is it catching what they got vaccinated for? Let's presume it's the latter. In that case, it's an awful vaccine that shouldn't have gone on the market. In that case, don't get it. The numbers and the risks are things we must deal with because no vaccine is 100% effective. What I am saying is, the supposed risk of getting autism or something else usually outweigh the risks associated of not getting vaccinated. In some cases vaccines are better off not given, like chickenpox. I was exposed to it as a child, at first it didn't make sense but then I didn't know that getting it as an adult is usually much worse than as a child. Now I'm susceptible to shingles when I am older. It stinks, but it's in my opinion a better takeaway than getting it as an adult and pose serious risk to my health. The vax as you said has a 44% success rate and is only temporary, which is kind of pointless. I don't blame you or anyone at all for not giving their kid that particular vaccine.

 

[Bunnykid68]

That's a pretty big what if scenario. In the end, it's a big numbers game. There are a lot of variables to be considered. Okay, let's say for instance you had a better chance of getting an adverse reaction than catching it and dying. What are these effects? Is it comparable to an allergy or is it catching what they got vaccinated for? Let's presume it's the latter. In that case, it's an awful vaccine that shouldn't have gone on the market. In that case, don't get it. The numbers and the risks are things we must deal with because no vaccine is 100% effective. What I am saying is, the supposed risk of getting autism or something else usually outweigh the risks associated of not getting vaccinated. In some cases vaccines are better off not given, like chickenpox. I was exposed to it as a child, at first it didn't make sense but then I didn't know that getting it as an adult is usually much worse than as a child. Now I'm susceptible to shingles when I am older. It stinks, but it's in my opinion a better takeaway than getting it as an adult and pose serious risk to my health. The vax as you said has a 44% success rate and is only temporary, which is kind of pointless. I don't blame you or anyone at all for not giving their kid that particular vaccine.

What about the Polio stats I posted up? For 20 years it seems the only way to get polio was from the vaccine itself.

 

[jamil]

That's a pretty big what if scenario. In the end, it's a big numbers game. There are a lot of variables to be considered. Okay, let's say for instance you had a better chance of getting an adverse reaction than catching it and dying. What are these effects? Is it comparable to an allergy or is it catching what they got vaccinated for? Let's presume it's the latter. In that case, it's an awful vaccine that shouldn't have gone on the market. In that case, don't get it. The numbers and the risks are things we must deal with because no vaccine is 100% effective. What I am saying is, the supposed risk of getting autism or something else usually outweigh the risks associated of not getting vaccinated. In some cases vaccines are better off not given, like chickenpox. I was exposed to it as a child, at first it didn't make sense but then I didn't know that getting it as an adult is usually much worse than as a child. Now I'm susceptible to shingles when I am older. It stinks, but it's in my opinion a better takeaway than getting it as an adult and pose serious risk to my health. The vax as you said has a 44% success rate and is only temporary, which is kind of pointless. I don't blame you or anyone at all for not giving their kid that particular vaccine.

So then what vaccines do you judge people harshly for not getting?

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

What about the Polio stats I posted up? For 20 years it seems the only way to get polio was from the vaccine itself.

Yes, but that's because the polio vaccine has been used for several generations now and had all but eradicated the disease in this country. NOW with polio, the risks of the vaccine (which have stayed the same) are probably greater than a child's risk of getting polio (a risk that is much, much, much lower now because of all the millions of children that have been vaccinated).

In general, vaccinations are really for the benefit of the over-all population, not the individual.

 

[rambone]

REASON: Are the Unvaccinated Legally Responsible?

One alleged measles death in 12 years. Hysteria ensues.

Reason Magazine wastes no time using the opportunity to advance its forced drug agenda.

Immune Compromised Woman Dies of Measles: Are the Unvaccinated Legally Responsible? | Reason.com

This follows up exactly with Ronald Bailey's article from 2013, where he argued for using government to punish and harass unvaccinated people.

I read a number of articles on this subject, and although there is plenty of hysterical ravings to go around, Reason is the only one I found actually advancing this point of going after unvaccinated people. Even some of the most rabidly statist outlets don't go this far.

FYI: Ironically, the deceased woman was already vaccinated for measles, but died anyway. Apparently she was on a whole bunch of different pharmaceutical drugs, and her immune system was compromised. The vaccine didn't give her immunity, and she died in a hospital. But nevermind that; the real problem is other patients having too much freedom.

 

[rambone]

Reason's latest piece seemed to rile a lot of its own libertarian followers on Facebook.



Alan Wood I think it’s ironic that a news outlet called “Reason” is implying that unvaccinated people at a hospital are to blame for a very sick v a c c i n a t e d woman dying of a disease... Are we seriously supposed to believe that a government enforced program of forced pharmaceuticals being injected into everyone, (which in many cases are known to be largely ineffective as well as causing serious bodily harm to many people), is the reasonable solution? This page might have to change its name to Unreasonable Magazine.

Susan Haymon Wow it is amazing to read the BS coming from people who read (and publish) libertarian journals.

Ginger Jorgensen Radonich This is a ridiculous straw man argument. The woman WAS vaccinated. The woman was in a health care facility which presumably has other sick people in it. I expect reason from Reason.

Steve Curtin So many authoritarian sickos in an alleged libertarian page.

Kimberly Wright Unbelievable. Reason doesn't even make a peep about SB277 that would have forced even homeschooled kids to be forcibly vaccinated without amendment and still severely limits homeschoolers ability to congregate despite vaccination rates already being well above targets and an 18% drop in personal belief exemptions from previous years. Seems like a concern for the cause of liberty. But THIS you'll mention. I love that a person who dies, or is crippled or brain damaged immediately after vaccination has to jump through a million hoops to get anyone to admit it was the vaccine but a woman with a host of other ailments happens to also have measles discovered in autopsy and it is immediately declared the cause of death. I hope everyone who is calling for the maybe/possible/might be person who infected her to take responsibility also quarantined themselves or their children for 2 months following any of their live virus vaccines since that also spreads the viruses.

Aidan James Browne I can't believe a so called libertarian publication is championing the prosecution of individuals who choose not to get vaccinated, could you be more full of ****, seriously?

Baldous Huxley WTF...is REASON, the magazine of "Free Minds and Free Markets" now advocating for MANDATORY vaccinations at the behest of govt.? Isn't this the same REASON who is against govt. provided health care and govt. mandated health insurance but now you are FOR govt. mandates involving injecting something into ones body the govt. says you MUST have? Seriously, WTF?

Andrew Poliakoff Are you joking? It's sad to see this sort of article coming out of Reason.

Martin Hoer So now Reason is shilling for big government/big pharma. The woman was vaccinated, if anybody should be sued it would be the maker of the inferior product that obviously did not work. Every time Reason puts these articles on vaccinations up they lose credibility. If these products work as big government/big pharma claim then those vaccinated should not worry about the unvaccinated as they are the ones unprotected.

Adam Miller I'm VERY disappointed in Reason Magazine. You're reading a lot like Slate right now. Holy ****ing ****.

Aaron von Prinz Go home Reason, you're drunk. You lose credibility as a libertarian news source every time you post garbage like this. How is Ronald Bailey still writing for you? He's terrible, and he's been terrible for a while now.

Evan Lightner Wow this is so libertarian!! Thanks Reason Magazine for being on board with the State and Big Pharma's mandatory vaccination agenda against people's will. Its super liberty, we appreciate it!

 

[HoughMade]

Wait....to be a good libertarian, not only do you have to be against mandated vaccinations, but you have to be against people being held liable if their choice not to vaccinate causes harm?

If it were fond that this woman contracted measles as a result of someone choosing not to be vaccinated, we don't believe in personal responsibility? Whether she was vaccinated or not is a side issue. I would assume that anyone would agree that the vaccinated and unvaccinated alike should have the same rights to seek damages.

Should the choice not to vaccinate have consequences and if not, what other personal choices should there be no consequences for?

 

[rambone]

Wait....to be a good libertarian, not only do you have to be against mandated vaccinations, but you have to be against people being held liable if their choice not to vaccinate causes harm?

Yes. I've explored the idea of punishing sick people earlier in this thread. It was addressed in the OP. Punishing sick people would be a good premise for a dystopian science fiction novel about a fanatical germophobic police state.

If it were fond that this woman contracted measles as a result of someone choosing not to be vaccinated, we don't believe in personal responsibility? Whether she was vaccinated or not is a side issue. I would assume that anyone would agree that the vaccinated and unvaccinated alike should have the same rights to seek damages.

The premise is ridiculous. Tens of thousands of people die from the flu every year, and exponentially more get infected. Should each case be grounds for legal action? No way.

Should the choice not to vaccinate have consequences and if not, what other personal choices should there be no consequences for?

Being drug free should carry no legal consequences. Sickness is a natural event and people should not be punished for nature taking its course. EVERY person reading this thread has passed on germs to others.

 

[indiucky]

If vaccines are so harmless, why was the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 passed.

If guns are so harmless why was the Gun Control Act of 1968 Passed? Why was the Assault Weapons Ban of 1994 passed?


As far as a "MMR Vaccine and Autism-A Mother's Journey to Heal Her Child" I can tell you this....Autistic children don't need to be "healed" or "fixed"...They are wonderful as is....