Rules in classrooms (concealed carry)

[dusty88]

I'm wondering what the typical 2014 gun training classroom rules are, and what others thoughts are on "no live ammo in the classroom".

I understand the safety reasons for the rule: don't mix unloaded training weapons with live weapons.

I don't have a problem with this in locations where there is some other security. For example, the gun shows have multiple armed guards and I suspect plenty of dealers at or near ready if some maniac shows up.

I also don't mind the rules that differentiate visible weapons from concealed. For example, I noticed Tim's in Westfield sign says (paraphrased) keep any weapons you are wearing in the holster; bring your practice weapons unloaded and in the case.

I saw another classroom rule that was "don't show me mine and I won't show you yours".

I was also fine with ATM's statement at the Appleseed: when it was time to bring out our rifles for the first time, he asked us to leave any concealed weapons in the car. He also advised that the instructors were carrying, and could cover us momentarily should anything unexpected happen.

I took a class from Ken Campbell and I believe that was a "no ammo" in the classroom, but it was in the basement of the jail faciliity with deputies upstairs. If someone got through that, we would have had a lot of notice. Ken's rule at or near the range was basically not to be fidgeting and unholstering. Your choice whether in the case or in your holster, just be safe with the gun.

I'm not too thrilled about an absolute strict "no live ammo, even concealed" in the classroom, if there is no other security. Is the instructor armed? Is there only 1 instructor?

Have you seen some of the forums of the anti-gun crowd? They heartily cheer when a gun owner is injured or killed, even when that person made great decisions and saved others. If they are anything, they are hateful. I do not think it's impossible for one of them to bring a weapon to a gun range and joyfully take out a bunch of gun owners because we were stupid enough to advertise where our no-gun zone is. I'm not paranoid about it, not twitchy nor particularly looking over my shoulder. But OTOH, if I were paranoid about anywhere that I carry, I just wouldn't be going to that place.

Thoughts?

 

[chezuki]

The rules seem to vary from instructor to instructor and also depending on the subject matter. I've never been asked to disarm for a class, but I certainly see the need for it for force-on-force training or anything where simunitions will be used, which are on my short list for future training.

 

[dusty88]

The rules seem to vary from instructor to instructor and also depending on the subject matter. I've never been asked to disarm for a class, but I certainly see the need for it for force-on-force training or anything where simunitions will be used, which are on my short list for future training.

I definitely agree with that, and in that case one would hope that there is some sort of security or plan for someone else entering the property.

I'm thinking specifically of instructional, especially indoor classrooms at ranges where the manager or instructor firmly states "no live ammo". IIRC, one even adds "including concealed weapons". Someone entering that room could easily take out the instructor first and then it's fish in a barrel.

 

[VERT]

Depends on the class. I have attended or instructed courses that were cold range rules. Absolutely no live ammo I the classroom. I have also attended or instructed courses where students could be or were required to be hot at all times. Just depends on the course objective.

 

[bwframe]

In my experience, hot/cold range and class decisions are instructor based on subject matter and class attendee experience. The classes I have attended have been pretty much right on.

That said, leave your friggen gun in the holster until it's appropriate to draw it. Your instructor will tell you exactly when/where it's appropriate.

I prefer a hot range. I don't care for the term "big boy rules."

 

[jblomenberg16]

I've seen it done both ways, and sometimes has been based on the facility rules more than anything. Some ranges / conservation clubs have a "no loaded weapons" policy while in the club house. As Vert said, some instructors also have a "always hot" policy, both in the classroom or out of it. One recent class I was at clearly stated that it was EXPECTED that students would be carrying at all times.

 

[dusty88]

I'm particularly concerned about indoor classrooms where either the instructor or the sign on the door says "no live ammo" or "no loaded weapons" and maybe says "including concealed carry". I don't dispute the students' weapons should be kept out of sight or especially not in their hands. I am concerned that it's not appropriate to ask for NO weapons or ammos in the actual classroom, wondering how common that is, and wondering if I would rethink my position based on anything someone else explains to me.

 

[Thor]

Would their No Guns sign / policy have any more force of law than any other No Guns sign / policy in the State?

Don't think so.



As to the instructors who do so, they MAY be valid in requesting first time users to not put themselves in a position of danger...sort of like the Appleseed policy I suppose.

Other than that, its their class they can make what rules they want. I am an adult who can choose to participate or not.

 

[VERT]

Liability people. Merely liability. You sign a waiver that you will follow the rules. Rules are simple so if you shoot yourself or somebody else it is on you.

As far as NRA courses are concerned, remember the "I'm the only one professional enough" guy. Well can you imagine if he pulled that garbage in an NRA course and the media got a hold of it. So yes there is a no live ammo policy in effect for NRA courses.

True story here. I taught an NRA course a couple of weeks ago. At the conclusion of the class somebody had a question about a particular brand of ammo. A participant had some and let them look at it. Fast forward to last weekend. I was sorting through my display materials and would anybody care to guess what I found with my inert display ammo? Yep a live 9mm Critical Duty round.

 

[Glock21]

My range rules (in no specific order) concerning your question are:

1- Unarmed people make me nervous.
2- We perform some drills with unloaded guns, but as a policy, I will not send you off the firing line without a loaded gun in your holster.
3- I run a hot range. All guns are always loaded - so, unless on the firing line and it is clear downrange, there is no reason your gun should be out of your holster other than immediate self-defense.
4- If you show up armed, just leave your gun in the holster. We do all gun handling on the line.
5- I don't use live guns in the classroom, nor do I ever unholster any of mine in the classroom.

Short of cavity searching each student and locking them in a cell, we can make all the "no ammo, no live guns", etc., rules we want and it will still amount to taking everyone's word for it. I don't take anyone word for it - I simply assume all guns are loaded and present the class accordingly. When guns are out on the firing line, we can avoid muzzles and work around them. When I see a gun out anywhere off the firing line I know we have a problem on one level or another.

 

[dusty88]

Thanks Glock21. That makes sense to me and it is compatible with the rules that work elsewhere: banning guns doesn't work unless you verify who really has the guns.

 

[Bisbobble]

I'm going to add something to think about in regards to NRA Rifle, Shotgun, and Pistol courses.

1. Most students are novice gun handlers at best.
2. Risk management says being attacked during the class is less likely than a mishap in class. Address the high probability issues first.

I fully support this policy in these types of courses. Other situations would depend on subject matter and skill level of participants.

 

[Westside]

Several reasons here are just a few.

Program/facility rules
Example project Appleseed, NRA basic courses

Skill level of students.
I have had a student start to ask a question about their gun and proceed to pull it out of their holster and point it at me with their finger on the trigger!

 

[Glock21]

I find that treating people like adults until the prove otherwise gets me better results. I can't say what's best for other Instructors or training programs.

I have lots of students who come to me with ZERO experience with firearms. Before we arrive at the range I've sent them a run down of what will be expected from them, one of the points being that all firearms stay in their bags, boxes or holstered until instructed to do otherwise. I reemphasize that multiple times during the day. In the 15-years I've been doing this, I've had one problem child who felt the need to wave his gun around before class. He was quickly told that if it happened again he'd be escorted off the range property and told never to return.

Here's the real issue with all of this. In my world I have a very limited amount of time to turn my students into competent gun handlers. I don't teach NRA Basic, or the like, I teach people how to shoot people and how to live with their guns. In order to do that effectively, I have to immediately place the responsibility on their shoulders. I have to start instilling proper habits and mindset from word one.

The NRA courses, etc., do what they do because lawyers are involved and there's no way anyone in Virginia can monitor what 1000's of Instructors are doing across the country on any given weekend. So, they default to the lowest common denominator in an effort to avoid accidents and lawsuits. And perhaps under their circumstances that's just fine.

It's not for me. Two things keep me up at night - 1) That I didn't teach my student enough. That we ran out of time and that one point they needed to hear to stay alive wasn't made. 2) That despite our best efforts, they still might do something stupid.

The only thing that helps me sleep is the realization that I have little control over either of those things.

With regard to #1 - I know my students leave class with a much higher degree of skills than they would an NRA basic pistol class, and that includes proper gun handling. That starts by running a hot range and demanding performance rather than patting them on the heads and treating them like first graders. They always leave better skilled than when they arrived. Each class is different, and each learns at a different pace, but they are getting x50 what they would get from an NRA basic pistol class. So if it ends up that some classes get x46, and others get x54, that's the breaks. But it's a nuclear-sized difference in what they would get from the NRA. A

s far as #2 goes - You can't eliminate the stupid factor, but you can point out what is stupid. Most people have simply never considered things like "where is a 'safe' direction to point my gun in my apartment?", and "Yeah. If the first rule is that All Guns Are Always Loaded, then it's NEVER ok to point any gun at anyone who is not an immediate threat, including myself, even if I know it's unloaded. I don't think I'll do that anymore!"

I run hot, and I immediately place responsibility in the hands of my students. ...and the best part is, they always rise to the occasion!

 

[dusty88]

Several reasons here are just a few.

Program/facility rules
Example project Appleseed, NRA basic courses

I want to clarify that I didn't mind being asked not to wear a concealed firearm at Appleseed. There were other ways to be secure: armed instructors, our own rifles with magazines often ready even if the mags weren't in the firearm at the time.

I wouldn't have worn a concealed pistol there anyway. I don't have much practice yet at rolling around with my holster on and am still working out the best holsters for "active" situations. The position changes with the rifle in hand were also new to me, so it would have not been appropriate to be thinking about 2 or more guns while going from prone to sitting, for example.

 

[Coach]

I find that treating people like adults until the prove otherwise gets me better results. I can't say what's best for other Instructors or training programs.

I have lots of students who come to me with ZERO experience with firearms. Before we arrive at the range I've sent them a run down of what will be expected from them, one of the points being that all firearms stay in their bags, boxes or holstered until instructed to do otherwise. I reemphasize that multiple times during the day. In the 15-years I've been doing this, I've had one problem child who felt the need to wave his gun around before class. He was quickly told that if it happened again he'd be escorted off the range property and told never to return.

Here's the real issue with all of this. In my world I have a very limited amount of time to turn my students into competent gun handlers. I don't teach NRA Basic, or the like, I teach people how to shoot people and how to live with their guns. In order to do that effectively, I have to immediately place the responsibility on their shoulders. I have to start instilling proper habits and mindset from word one.

The NRA courses, etc., do what they do because lawyers are involved and there's no way anyone in Virginia can monitor what 1000's of Instructors are doing across the country on any given weekend. So, they default to the lowest common denominator in an effort to avoid accidents and lawsuits. And perhaps under their circumstances that's just fine.

It's not for me. Two things keep me up at night - 1) That I didn't teach my student enough. That we ran out of time and that one point they needed to hear to stay alive wasn't made. 2) That despite our best efforts, they still might do something stupid.

The only thing that helps me sleep is the realization that I have little control over either of those things.

With regard to #1 - I know my students leave class with a much higher degree of skills than they would an NRA basic pistol class, and that includes proper gun handling. That starts by running a hot range and demanding performance rather than patting them on the heads and treating them like first graders. They always leave better skilled than when they arrived. Each class is different, and each learns at a different pace, but they are getting x50 what they would get from an NRA basic pistol class. So if it ends up that some classes get x46, and others get x54, that's the breaks. But it's a nuclear-sized difference in what they would get from the NRA. A

s far as #2 goes - You can't eliminate the stupid factor, but you can point out what is stupid. Most people have simply never considered things like "where is a 'safe' direction to point my gun in my apartment?", and "Yeah. If the first rule is that All Guns Are Always Loaded, then it's NEVER ok to point any gun at anyone who is not an immediate threat, including myself, even if I know it's unloaded. I don't think I'll do that anymore!"

I run hot, and I immediately place responsibility in the hands of my students. ...and the best part is, they always rise to the occasion!

Plenty of great statements and philosophy here.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Best advice, ask before you go:

First class I had to unload my EDC because the instructor wanted it cold.

Second class (Mindset) I assumed since we would be using simunition that it would be cold and didnt even carry. Shay prefers we carry at all times, and is VERY thorough before transitioning from classroom to range. (including pat-downs and wanding)

It never hurts to ask.

 

[minny1990]

I think if your going to a class to learn more about carrying that some people should not have a gun on them lets face it some people are stupid. Also some don't have the license yet . but at the same time the people who are reasonable with there guns/ have there license should be able to carry. but I guess I under stand no guns in the class room but at the same time if one person has a gun then its not a gun free zone its we have are there no reason to have yours.. but in my mind first person that going to be shoot if something happen is the guy up front with a gun I guess that just me ?

 

[sloughfoot]

Respect for the instructor is key here. The King is in his castle and if you want to be in his court, you best follow his rules.

It is no more complicated than that

People HAVE been shot in training. I think it was 1989 that a Police recruit was killed in the academy range here in Ft Wayne.

 

[Coach]

1. Stupid people should not have guns, cars, kids and several other things probably.
2. Having a license does not mean a safe gun handler. Not even close.
3. Learning how to shoot and to handle guns safely cannot be done on the internet, in a simulator, from a book. It is hands on activity.