S&W Recalls Atlanta PD M&P 40 Pistols

[Agent 007]

myfoxatlanta.com | Atlanta Police Guns Recalled by Maker 060909

This comes fresh on the heels of the dropping of the M&P from being an approved weapon for LA County Sheriff's Office in California.

OFFICER SAFETY: LASD DE-CERTIFIES S&W M&P PISTOL | Police & Law Enforcement Discussions and Forums - PoliceLink

After owning 3 M&P 40 Compacts in an attempt to get one that didn't have issues, I finally gave up on them. ALL of mine had FTF issues, even with FMJ ammo. One would lock back with rounds still in the mag. I was initially happy with them, given the great ergonomics and good looks. But function is everything in the world of defensive firearms. Bottom line is, I don't trust their quality control.

Don't know exactly what the problem is with the trigger group in Atlanta PD's guns, but if I owned an M&P, I'd check with S&W about it. Just a heads up......stay safe out there!

 

[Disposable Heart]

The compacts have the same tendency as any .40 compact, limpwristing. I have seen quite a few of these at the range, great guns but VERY susceptible to limp wristing. FTF is bad stuff though. I always hate to see bad stuff happening to a great design (but seemingly poorly machined or finished gun). Screw limpwristing, seems like yours had similar issues as those in the article!

The article sounded like Smith sent barrels that were improperly machined or simply not up to the task of firing 9mm. Two guns of 49 had issues. That is simply unacceptable. I could understand (from a purchasing standpoint, not the no-comprimise life of a beat cop) 2 out of 5000. They are back to Beretta 92s? My wondering asks two things:
1. Why did they ditch the Berettas? Complaints? Simple cost?
2. What features did the MP offer the Beretta didnt? Size? Light weight polymer frame?

The 92 is a great gun, particularly for duty use. Full size, controllable, ergonomic, high capacity, inexpensive mags, etc... Strange to say the least!

Great article and a headscratcher. I always like trouble shooting stuff, appeals to a meticulous nature that I never get to employ! Sounds like Smith is trying to cut corners somewhere!

 

[jmb79]

Before this forum become guilty of helping to spread unsubstantiated and later disproved rumors, please consider the following thread on 10-8 Forums regarding the L.A. County M&P incident. 10-8 Forums: Officer Safety: Smith & Wesson M&P Pistols

The bottom line re the L.A. County incident is that supervisors over reacted to a couple of incidents and that the two incidence invovled a barrel that had been "worked on" by the user, and non-standard ammo.

Now, the Atlanta recall appears to be trigger related which is was not the case with L.A. County. Let's wait for the facts before we judge.

And for the record, I am not a S&W M&P fan as I prefer Glocks. However, I hate to see folks jump to conclusions (I am not implying that Agent 007 is jumping to conclusions) before all the evidence is in.

 

[jason conley]

Maybe Atlanta should have went with Smith revolvers.

 

[x10]

Well this will kill the m&p, it only take one problem like this one time and then it take 20 years to over come it, if you don't believe me check with less knowledgeble people about the AR (Vietnam stuck cases), M9's (Slides breaking), S&W 66 (Cyl locking up), and the list goes on.

I hate that to because I have a m&p in 40 and I love it

 

[No Time to Shoot]

myfoxatlanta.com | Atlanta Police Guns Recalled by Maker 060909

This comes fresh on the heels of the dropping of the M&P from being an approved weapon for LA County Sheriff's Office in California.

OFFICER SAFETY: LASD DE-CERTIFIES S&W M&P PISTOL | Police & Law Enforcement Discussions and Forums - PoliceLink

After owning 3 M&P 40 Compacts in an attempt to get one that didn't have issues, I finally gave up on them. ALL of mine had FTF issues, even with FMJ ammo. One would lock back with rounds still in the mag. I was initially happy with them, given the great ergonomics and good looks. But function is everything in the world of defensive firearms. Bottom line is, I don't trust their quality control.

Don't know exactly what the problem is with the trigger group in Atlanta PD's guns, but if I owned an M&P, I'd check with S&W about it. Just a heads up......stay safe out there!

Sorry to hear you had problems! I've put 1400 rounds through my .40 M&Pc with 0 fail to fire or fail to feed. My only complaint is it seems to be prone to holster wear on the slide. I don't agree with it being prone to limp wrist people either just from my personal experience teaching new women shooters that were obviously limp wristed to use my M&Pc.

 

[Bigum1969]

Sorry to hear you had problems! I've put 1400 rounds through my .40 M&Pc with 0 fail to fire or fail to feed. My only complaint is it seems to be prone to holster wear on the slide. I don't agree with it being prone to limp wrist people either just from my personal experience teaching new women shooters that were obviously limp wristed to use my M&Pc.

I've also had no problems with my M&P .40c. In fact, it is one of my primary carry pieces.

 

[Buckaroo]

No problems with my 40c. I am considering getting a full size .40 too.

Buckaroo

 

[WestSider]

9c here. Love it. If I had to get rid of all my guns except one, it would be the one I would keep.

 

[dblagent]

40c here too, not a single problem with it yet! Has fed everything I've thrown at it and never hiccuped.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Seeing a few of them out at our range, NEW shooters are limpwristing them. They arent terribly prone to it, but due to the snapiness of .40 and the compact nature of the gun, it, like many other .40 subcompacts with new shooters, limpwristing is an issue. I have seen it more in the MP than the Glocks. Just personal observation, NOT scientific fact.

If the recall was for something else, then I wonder why that was not stated in the article? Seems strange. Modified barrel? That could be a HUGE problem. I wonder how far they "modified it" to make it complode in the gun INTO PIECES!? Someone was Dremel Happy!

 

[jmb79]

If the recall was for something else, then I wonder why that was not stated in the article? Seems strange. Modified barrel? That could be a HUGE problem. I wonder how far they "modified it" to make it complode in the gun INTO PIECES!? Someone was Dremel Happy!

Just to be clear, by my post I did not intend to convey the notion that Atlanta's issue is the same as the "non-issue" that occured in L.A. County. I only meant to say that the OP's reference to the L.A. county issue was misplaced because it was a non-issue.

 

[BE Mike]

It looks like S&W is taking responsibility and correcting the problem. Glock would never admit that there is anything wrong with their guns.

 

[Dryden]

It's been a year & a half with my M&P 9c. Absolutely NO problems...PERIOD.
My wife also shoots it and she cuts out the center of the target at 25 ft.

Believe me, if I thought there was ANY problem with this pistol, it would not be in my waistband.

 

[gglass]

Since you want to pass along LE agency issues (real or percieved) as an indictment to the whole M&P platform, let's just take a look at what a quick Google search finds about the Glock brand and LE agencies...

NYPD Advisory - Effective 20 February 2003 all Glock Model 26 pistols in the E serial range of the current "non-recall" have been banned from carry by NYPD MOS. They are instructed to cease carrying the weapon and contact the Firearms Training Section for instructions concerning replacement.- Lt. Sean McMahon
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Albuquerque, N.M. - The Bernalillo County Sheriff's Department has discovered a problem with its new Glock .40-caliber semi-automatic handguns.An inspection turned up two more broken guns says Deputy Robert Ray. Ray, the departments armorer, says that on some newer versions of the gun, two pieces of steel in the lower portion of the weapon were improperly machined. Those pieces may be prone to breaking under the stress of repeated firing.
________________________________________

Portland Police Chief Derrick Foxworth is ordering all officers to transition to the use of 9mm handguns after recent mechanical failures of the Glock .45 caliber handgun. During the week of March 1, 2004, two failures occurred during firearms training.The transition to the 9mm handguns will be handled in such a manner as to ensure that officers continue to provide the same level of service to the community. - PIO Cheryl Robinson
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The Tribune-Star - Indiana State Police will receive new Glock 9 mm handguns as a result of functional problems with their current Glock 40-caliber handguns.About 50 guns that were identified as dysfunctional through a manufacturer defect will be replaced, said Indiana State Police Sgt. Joe Watts. The manufacturer is replacing the guns at no cost to State Police, Watts said. No timeline has been set for when the new handguns will arrive. When they arrive, police will be trained on their use. State troopers can carry one of the new, replaced handguns or the gun previously carried, a Beretta 40-caliber, he said.
_________________________________________

SPRINGFIELD -- Illinois State Police troopers soon will be carrying new pistols after officials said a malfunction in one of the most popular police weapons could have killed an officer if left unchecked. Glock Inc., based in Smyrna, Ga., will replace all of the agency's 2,270 Glock Model 22 handguns at a significant discount, although it disputes a state police claim that it altered the model to compensate for a design flaw.
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Local Indiana PD Department (100 Officers)

I know all about "Glock Perfection", however these problems are very real and are the weapon, not the shooter limp wristing as has been explained to us. I am not going to debate that this has been happening. This is an issues that I have had in my duty gun. This is an issue that several of my officers have had in theirs. Quite simply, this is an issue that Glock needs to resolve.

As has been well documentated here and on other professional forums, there have been significant problems persistent in the .40 Glocks. Ours have continued after switching ammo three times, switching mag springs, recoil springs, guide rods, shooting with different lights (including the horrible Glock light), etc...

Glock and our regional rep, M.W. (name withheld) have been of no help. We cannot get our rep to even return our calls and emails, let alone get him to come to the range to see the problem first hand.

This problem has gone on for over 3 years, which is long enough. We have given Glock every opportunity to resolve this, yet they refuse. As of today, we cut a check to outfit the approx 1/2 of our dept. that currently carries Glock with the Sig P229R.

While I realize that our dept. is fairly small at right at 100 officers, this is an extremely poor reflection on the Glock company and their LE rep. Our firearms Lt. emailed our rep to tell him that we were switching back to Sigs and still got no response.

To those who have experienced the same problems I have, thank you for your shared wisdom (R. Moran and tpd223, especially). To those still struggling with Glock over these issues, I wish you the best of luck.

To Glock, as a company I wish you continued sucess. However if your continued lack of LE support continues you will quickly find yourself on the outside looking in, just as S&W did several years ago.

Despite all of the drama and nonsupport we have recieved from Glock, I personally still believe that they make a wonderful gun - just not in .40 cal. I will continue to carry my 23 as my off duty gun until it starts to give me problems then away it goes to be replaced with a 19.

There has already been one documentated case that I am aware of where a .40 22 misfed a round while an officer was actively engaging a suspect. The officer was thankfully well versed in the tap rack drill and got his weapon functioning. I find this to be unsatisfactory for a duty gun.

If an officer is injured or unable to respond to an incident due to faulty equipment then both the PD and Glock are going to be liable and will be writing very large checks to the families of all involved.
____________________________________________

Milwaukee Police Department Finds Problems With Guns

Posted: April 17th, 2009 01:30 PM EDT

Story by wisn.com

MILWAUKEE --

The Milwaukee Police Department found that there is a serious problem with its guns.

Officer Vidal Colon was injured over the weekend in a shootout, in which his gun jammed.

The police chief has known about the problem for a year, but he is now taking immediate action following Saturday’s shooting.

The chief sent a memo to the entire police department about the weapon problem.
On Saturday, Colon responded to a report of a man armed with a gun near 36th and Scott streets.
Colon fired his gun 13 times, and the suspect, Louis Domenech, shot back six times, refusing to drop his weapon, said police.

Both men were hit, and police have been investigating the shootout. They learned that one bullet casing had stovepiped, or jammed, in the officer’s weapon.

Police said stovepiping can be caused by technique depending on the position of the gun.

But, the memo to the department revealed that the problem could be with the gun itself.

"We had experienced a number of issues on the range with our issued Glock model 22, .40 caliber duty pistol magazines, which represents 45 percent of our issued weapons," said Flynn in the memo.

The chief became aware of the problem in January 2008. Since then, "Glock has replaced 2,700 pistol magazines at no cost to the Milwaukee Police Department," said Flynn in the memo.

The memo also said that the department addressed the issue with officers during a 2008 in-service firearms training session.

But, according to the memo, 300 weapons have been transitioned while 600 remain.
On Thursday night, training division personnel are exchanging the magazines in the remaining 600 firearms.
The memo went on to say that due to an abudance of caution, the academy will be operating 24 hours a day for the next three days or until the magazines have been replaced.

Flynn also said the protocol in issuing the magazines made the most sense because the only malfunctions reported were taking place at the shooting range.
_________________________________________

Hmmm... What can we extrapolate from this?

You stay safe out there too!

 

[Agent 007]

Wow, somebody got butt-hurt! How long did it take you to research all of that?

Just relaying information. I don't recall even mentioning Glock in this thread, but thanks for the info. My Glocks run just fine, a G22 with TLR-1 light attached, and a G27. The G22 is about 9 years old, and the G27 was made in 1996. Apparently, some of the new .40 Glocks don't run well for some reason. I would not want a new one for this reason....same reason I would trust an older pre-lock S&W revolver, but won't have anything to do with the new ones with the key lock.

Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned my negative experience with M&P compacts, but hey, spending $500 a pop and getting junk 3 times in a row would tend to **** one off. I can "extrapolate" from my experience, coupled with the history of issues with these pistols, that there may be a monkey wrench in the QC department at S&W.

Everyone is free to ignore the issue that Atlanta PD is having with their pistols, it's a free country. I merely presented the info for those that may be concerned about a potential point of failure in a model that they may own. Same with Glocks....I wouldn't hesitate to buy a new 9mm Glock, as you rarely ever hear of issues with them, but I wouldn't purchase a new .40 model right now. Gaston seems to have his head up his ass at the moment.

It seems that Glocks customer service is reprehensible lately. They need to fix that. Although S&W customer service is reported to be excellent, IMO they need to focus on perfecting their design and quality control instead of having a different issue crop up every 6 months with their pistols. A company only gains a reputation for great customer service if many customers have actually had to USE it. Look at Hi-Point. Despite the fact that they have phenomenal customer service, and will even completely replace your space age feces/scrap metal alloy pistol if it fails, this does not translate into a superior design that is suitable for serious use. Customer service is a factor, to be sure....but it will not help you in a gunfight. HK reputedly has horrible "you suck and we hate you" customer service, but I wouldn't hesitate to take a USP or P2000 into combat tomorrow. An M&P? Eh...not so much. Not yet, anyway.

 

[Indy317]

myfoxatlanta.com | Atlanta Police Guns Recalled by Maker 060909

This comes fresh on the heels of the dropping of the M&P from being an approved weapon for LA County Sheriff's Office in California.

However, I hate to see folks jump to conclusions (I am not implying that Agent 007 is jumping to conclusions) before all the evidence is in.

Milwaukee Police not only had issues with Glock, they eventually dumped them....for the M&P in .40S&W!!

13009 - Smith&Wesson: Press Releases

The problem with these articles is that decisions like this are usually made by some committee made up of maybe twenty people. Not only that, there is usually a few of these individuals with some sort of bias towards one gun or the other.

Back when they used to send issues like this via NCIC, I would see plenty of Glock messages about one department somewhere having problems. It was the same for the police vehicles as well, especially the "Police Interceptor." Part of the reason for this was that Glock, at one time, was being used by more than 50% of all LE organizations. Obviously if you have that many people using one product, and others using HKs, Sigs, Berettas, revolvers, etc., you are going to find more problems with the industry leader.

I carried an HK USP and my boss made sure I got a message about the spring issue one department had. Seems that the metal piece in front of the spring had cracked. HK was issuing free repairs, but this department wanted to give everyone a heads up. I called that departments aromor and he explained the issue and said that you can easily tell and told me he suggested to just do a check everytime I cleaned the weapon. Outside of me, I know of only two other police agencies that carried USP: Westfield PD and that PD out on the east coast. Given that, that one message about problems with the USP represents about 100 Glock messages given the # of users vs. problems discovered.

Currently I carry an older model, but still 3rd Generation Glock 22. The only issues I have had with it were failure to feeds after my arms were so tired of constantly shooting, I was kind just shooting to be shooting. I was concentrating on each and every shot, holding the gun really firm, etc.. As such, I do believe that I was "limp wristing" the firearm. This was never an issue with my HK, but it seems more and more semi-autos are so fine tuned, that the slightest improper use will throw them off. Still, my Glock 22 has had maybe 10 failures, out of shooting at least 3,000 rounds through it. Would I wish it was zero, yea, but it is a machine, one that can be finiky about the way the user is operating it.

 

[00BlasterResto]

Good to know, My girlfreinds brother is home from Iraq and looking for something to keep at home while on leave "sighned for another 4" we looked at alot of guns, he wants a .40 and he narrowed it down to the M&P and a few others, this should get the M&P booted. The glock was just to ugly for him, but we checked them out. I'm steering him toward a SIG=)

 

[gglass]

Well it seems that there has been a typical overreaction to the Atlanta PD recall. The issue has now been confirmed to be a reinstallation of the trigger system to add weight. This is known as a Massachusetts Trigger, since they were one of the first states to require a 10+ pound trigger.

Why the added weight? It seems that some of the officers were having unintentional double taps and AD's, with the factory 6.5# trigger that most M&P's have. (Poor trigger control on the part of the officers)

There are many reasons that a manufacturer would issue a recall:

1) Safety - The product in question could cause harm because of a design issue (Not the case here)
2) Design - The product could have new or improved design elements that the manufacturer wants to incorporate (Not the case here)
3) Craftsmanship - The product could have poor or substandard workmanship or materials (Not the case here)
4) Customer Request - The customer may want to change an attribute of the product to better meet their needs (This is the case here)

 

[No Time to Shoot]

Well it seems that there has been a typical overreaction to the Atlanta PD recall. The issue has now been confirmed to be a reinstallation of the trigger system to add weight. This is known as a Massachusetts Trigger, since they were one of the first states to require a 10+ pound trigger.

Why the added weight? It seems that some of the officers were having unintentional double taps and AD's, with the factory 6.5# trigger that most M&P's have. (Poor trigger control on the part of the officers)

Thanks for clearing that up! I will stick with my M&P and I will probably buy a few more. So anyone that wants to get rid of their junk M&P feel free to send it my way! I wouldn't want you running around with such a dangerous gun...LOL