SB1 and SWAT Teams Raiding the Wrong Home

[IndyDave1776]

I have been pondering the practical effect of significant force being used successfully or unsuccessfully by citizens who are wrongfully invaded by the SWAT team.

This poll allows selecting all choices that you believe apply!

 

[ray d]

I can only hope that LEOs stop this no knock raid BS . Unless you are called stay in your stations!

 

[Stschil]

I didn't vote as I don't think any of the choices meet what I feel.

Initially, I don't think its going to have an effect on SWAT operations. I believe they will continue as things have been until there have been a few situations were a homeowner actually does defend. It will take national press of a wholely F'd up raid where there is loss of life (probably the HO and some LE) before any real political pressure is brought to make change.
I truely believe that it's the politics of the wars on drugs/terrorism that have given birth to the excessive use of no knocks, not the LEOs on the front lines. If a public outcry gets loud and strong enough, the Pols will take notice.
Unfortunately, in today's me first society, it's going to take the blood of someone who is beyond reproach being spilled before the People will stand up and say No.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Unless you are called stay in your stations!

While the Indiana Appellate Courts subjective allowance of the knock requirement may be a matter of debate, what do you mean by this??

I am not tracking at all.

 

[pearlman1966]

I believe they will continue as things have been until there have been a few situations were a homeowner actually does defend. It will take national press of a wholely F'd up raid where there is loss of life (probably the HO and some LE) before any real political pressure is brought to make change

This already happened at Waco Tx.

 

[88GT]

I don't think anything will change because SB1 didn't change anything. SB1 did nothing more than return us to the status quo that existed before the idiotic Barnes decision. We have NOT added the right to resist to the equation with SB1.

 

[Stschil]

I believe they will continue as things have been until there have been a few situations were a homeowner actually does defend. It will take national press of a wholely F'd up raid where there is loss of life (probably the HO and some LE) before any real political pressure is brought to make change

This already happened at Waco Tx.

And Ruby Ridge. We KNOW that those actions werent called for, but in each case, the media spin was able to paint both Weaver and the Branch Davidians as fringe malcontents. What I mean by beyond reproach is just that. Someone that the media CAN NOT spin. Ie a Judge, a Minister, a Mayor, etc. If a no knock gets served mistakenly at a home like that and the HO defends, the newsies won't be able to put a bad light on them.

 

[Rob377]

After a few dead cops, a whole bunch of dead innocent homeowners, a slew of wrongful death lawsuits, maybe, just maybe some sense will prevail and this no-knock business will be limited to appropriate situations. Maybe, just maybe, cops will double check addresses and so on.

But I doubt it. Call me skeptical, but I don't see a bunch of corrupt mouth-breathers with an "I'm a super elite tactical operator ninja" complex yielding to common-freakin-sense. They're still going to want to do no-knocks on jaywalkers, because it makes them feel like a badass. They're still not going to check address, because numbers are hard and confusing. They're still going to lie and cover for their own, because that's what they do.

We've seen it before. Many, many times. SB1 notwithstanding, we'll continue to see it until we start putting cops up for murder when they get it wrong. None of this "oops, wrong address, our bad. Good thing we've got immunity!" BS. Charge them, convict them, and send them away like you would any other jackass that kicks down doors and shoots innocent people.

When they lie to obtain warrants, and people die as a result, charge the liar under felony murder doctrine.

 

[88GT]

After a few dead cops, a whole bunch of dead innocent homeowners, a slew of wrongful death lawsuits, maybe, just maybe some sense will prevail and this no-knock business will be limited to appropriate situations. Maybe, just maybe, cops will double check addresses and so on.

But I doubt it. Call me skeptical, but I don't see a bunch of corrupt mouth-breathers with an "I'm a super elite tactical operator ninja" complex yielding to common-freakin-sense. They're still going to want to do no-knocks on jaywalkers, because it makes them feel like a badass. They're still not going to check address, because numbers are hard and confusing. They're still going to lie and cover for their own, because that's what they do.

We've seen it before. SB1 notwithstanding, we'll continue to see it until we start putting cops up for murder when they get it wrong. None of this "oops, wrong address, our bad. Good thing we've got immunity!" BS. Charge them, convict them, and send them away like you would any other jackass that kicks down doors and shoots innocent people.

When they lie to obtain warrants, and people die as a result, charge the liar under felony murder doctrine.

Excellent points. I'd like to see a better standard for issuing warrants too. I remember the Jose Guerena warrant and it read like the diary of a man who visited his nearby family on a regular basis. Whoop-dee-do. What it didn't provide was anything remotely resembling evidence that Guerena himself was involved in any drug trafficking.

While I'd like to see no-knocks go the way of the do-do bird, I don't see that happening. My next preference would be a severe cut-back on the use of SWAT. But that won't happen either. So I suppose I could settle for a more judicious use of the no-knock (only when absolutely necessary), and a proper knock and announce for everything else. And by proper I mean no less a minute before entry is made.

This knock, announce, wait 3 seconds, and then enter by force is beyond ridiculous. It's insulting.

 

[Rob377]

Excellent points. I'd like to see a better standard for issuing warrants too. I remember the Jose Guerena warrant and it read like the diary of a man who visited his nearby family on a regular basis. Whoop-dee-do. What it didn't provide was anything remotely resembling evidence that Guerena himself was involved in any drug trafficking.

While I'd like to see no-knocks go the way of the do-do bird, I don't see that happening. My next preference would be a severe cut-back on the use of SWAT. But that won't happen either. So I suppose I could settle for a more judicious use of the no-knock (only when absolutely necessary), and a proper knock and announce for everything else. And by proper I mean no less a minute before entry is made.

This knock, announce, wait 3 seconds, and then enter by force is beyond ridiculous. It's insulting.

And of course they do it at 0dark30 when they know you'll be asleep, so that you'll be nice and disorientated and unable to process what the hell just happened when they do kick the door down. It's insulting and complete bull****.


If getting it wrong is punished swiftly and severely, then I suspect that cops will be a little more careful about their warrant applications. When the whole team has a potential murder rap hanging over their heads, they'll probably be a bit more careful.

 

[IndyDave1776]

While the Indiana Appellate Courts subjective allowance of the knock requirement may be a matter of debate, what do you mean by this??

I am not tracking at all.

Kirk, our neighbor has previously posted on occasion the belief that police should act like the fire department and stay put inside the cop shop until called. I am not sure I consider it a practical solution as opposed to (the offending parties) learning how to behave in a civilized manner, but it is an interesting solution.

I don't think anything will change because SB1 didn't change anything. SB1 did nothing more than return us to the status quo that existed before the idiotic Barnes decision. We have NOT added the right to resist to the equation with SB1.

No disagreement, but I believe that it is fair to say that this was not common knowledge before the Barnes ruling and the subsequent adoption of SB1 into law. I tend to believe that public awareness of a right which previously fell into the realm of esoteric knowledge is in a very real way a new right to most people.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

After a few dead cops, a whole bunch of dead innocent homeowners, a slew of wrongful death lawsuits, maybe, just maybe some sense will prevail and this no-knock business will be limited to appropriate situations. Maybe, just maybe, cops will double check addresses and so on.

But I doubt it. Call me skeptical, but I don't see a bunch of corrupt mouth-breathers with an "I'm a super elite tactical operator ninja" complex yielding to common-freakin-sense. They're still going to want to do no-knocks on jaywalkers, because it makes them feel like a badass. They're still not going to check address, because numbers are hard and confusing. They're still going to lie and cover for their own, because that's what they do.

We've seen it before. Many, many times. SB1 notwithstanding, we'll continue to see it until we start putting cops up for murder when they get it wrong. None of this "oops, wrong address, our bad. Good thing we've got immunity!" BS. Charge them, convict them, and send them away like you would any other jackass that kicks down doors and shoots innocent people.

When they lie to obtain warrants, and people die as a result, charge the liar under felony murder doctrine.

And of course they do it at 0dark30 when they know you'll be asleep, so that you'll be nice and disorientated and unable to process what the hell just happened when they do kick the door down. It's insulting and complete bull****.


If getting it wrong is punished swiftly and severely, then I suspect that cops will be a little more careful about their warrant applications. When the whole team has a potential murder rap hanging over their heads, they'll probably be a bit more careful.

I'm not a cop and have only been marginally involved in law enforcement, but in my previous life as an emergency management responder who sometimes worked with IPD and MCSD SWAT personnel, I'm going to take a bit of offense at your rather one-sided characterization of such raids. I'll refrain from calling you names or making snide remarks about your intelligence.

There are, I think, some very good reasons SWAT no-knock raids are conducted as they are. In every case, the supposed criminals are armed and believed to be willing to use force to resist arrest. They are also believed to be capable of disposing of evidence if allowed time to do so. The police must make this case to the authority issuing the warrant.

The reasons many raids are conducted in the dead of night are to minimize the number civilians which might be injured if fighting breaks out and because the middle of the night is exactly when the suspects are expected to be least able to resist arrest with force.

The police use large(ish) teams to provide overwhelming force to minimize resistance and to have enough manpower to neutralize suspects rapidly. This is done to minimize casualties all around.


Having said all that, while it is inevitable that law enforcement intelligence gets their information wrong at times, ANYONE who is wrongfully arrested and has their house broken attacked in error should be compensated with double or triple indemnity by the jurisdiction that made the mistake and any evidence of post-facto tampering with the warrants should be punished by the full force of the law.

 

[rambone]

OP, Maybe you should explain what SB1 is, for people who don't already know.

 

[Rob377]

I...

There are, I think, some very good reasons SWAT no-knock raids are conducted as they are. In every case, the supposed criminals are armed and believed to be willing to use force to resist arrest. They are also believed to be capable of disposing of evidence if allowed time to do so. The police must make this case to the authority issuing the warrant.
....

Every case, eh?
Horse puckey.


And if a cop is about to kick down someone's door, weapons hot, with the intent to kill anything that moves, and can't be bothered to perform a simple task like double check an address, then that cop is undoubtedly an incompetent, stupid mouth breather.

Take offense if you like, but I would hope you're not defending idiots who can't take the simple precaution of checking an address before kicking down doors and shooting innocent people.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

How did SB1 become a thread on no knock warrants?

Every warrant in Indiana is a potential no knock warrant but what does that have to do with SB1?

Is there some misunderstanding what SB1 does?

Why all the bromides about bodies in the street?

 

[rambone]

There are, I think, some very good reasons SWAT no-knock raids are conducted as they are. In every case, the supposed criminals are armed and believed to be willing to use force to resist arrest. They are also believed to be capable of disposing of evidence if allowed time to do so. The police must make this case to the authority issuing the warrant.

"Capability of disposing evidence" is not an acceptable reason for a no-knock raid.

If all the evidence is flushable, the case is weak and the crime probably should not exist in the first place.

 

[radonc73]

THe problem is that no procecutor has the balls to charge a SWAT team with murder let alone get a conviction. You could always use RICO statutes I guess. An organized B and E team and a breakin ends in murder but like I said who is going to procecute? Even a 3X judgement against the team does nothing the taxpayers are on the hook for the bill unless could could you sue for their equipment I could use an APC for my commute not to mention how fun it would be to take to the trails.

 

[phylodog]

And if a cop is about to kick down someone's door, weapons hot, with the intent to kill anything that moves,

 

[IndyDave1776]

I understand. Unfortunately in most circumstances, the worst examples get to be the public face of everyone in a general group. Incidentally, I agree completely with your assessment that lack of media attention speaks volumes about the IMPD SWAT team's quality of work.

 

[Rob377]

There are dozens of innocent people killed at the hands of trigger happy cops that were too stupid/lazy to get the right house. I don't think that's particularly funny.

Maybe cops think one of their brothers in blue killing innocent people is a laughing matter.

Crime Scene - Video: Seven-year-old girl killed during Detroit police raid

Man Dies in Police Raid on Wrong House - ABC News

Ex-Atlanta officers get prison time for cover-up in deadly raid - CNN


Yep. Hilarious.


If Joe CCW shoots the wrong person, they go to jail. LEOs need to be held to the same standard.