Security Cameras

[KittySlayer]

I manage a downtown Fort Wayne office building with parking adjacent to the building. We have recently had some aggressive homeless panhandlers approaching employees in our parking lot and yesterday had a building window broken by vandals. A couple of owners have decided we need security cameras so I have asked them to answer some questions below. I am uncertain how security cameras will eliminate these problems as they really seem like after the fact documentation, although I do have cameras at my home.

Interested in INGO input regarding security cameras purpose and their usefulness. Not looking for brands as I will do that once I begin getting vendor quotes.

Below is the email I sent to the owners:

Subject: Building / Security ~ Cameras

Before getting quotes for security cameras we need to be able to tell the potential vendors what our goal is so they can quote a system to monitor the appropriate areas. Answers to these questions will help determine how many cameras are needed and their placement.

CONCERNS ~ what is our primary concern?

• Property
  • Building and outdoor property (vandalism/damage)
  • Building access via doorways
  • Personal property (vehicles)
• People
  • Employees
  • Customers
  • Other

FEARS ~ who are we afraid of?

• Homeless
  • Trespassing
  • Mentally unstable
• Robbers/attackers
• Youth (skateboarders/vandals)
• Unhappy customers
• Accidental damage (distracted drivers)

GOALS ~ how do we want to be able to use the captured images?

• Determine when something happened?
• Copy to police
• Identify person
  • What is the purpose behind identifying the person?
    • Most homeless people have no assets and already know to police.
• Identify vehicle
  • Make/model
  • License plate
  • Impacts camera resolution and placement
• File an insurance claim
• Other?

PROTECTIONS ~ what else can be done for safety and security?

• Call 911
  • Provides a solution besides simply sending an internal email to express concern
  • This brings trained individuals to our location
  • Creates a record of problems to allow police to prioritize their patrols
• Safety Protocols
  • Read and follow regular emails sent by managers
• Situational Awareness
  • Looking out the window to determine the path between the vehicle and building is safe
    • Having key in hand to unlock doors
  • Staying off your cell phone while walking to/from car/building
    • Avoids distractions allowing you to see and hear what is going on around you
    • Keeps you focused on your personal security rather than your conversation
    • Hands are free for personal defense if necessary
• Walking in groups when leaving the building or at least have someone watch you through the window
• If working after hours moving your vehicle to the Visitor parking area so you have a clear field of view of the path from the building to the your vehicle
• Train and carry self-defense tools you are comfortable with
  • Keychains
    • Audible panic alarms
    • Car alarm button
    • Impact tools
  • Pepper spray
  • Tasers or stun guns
  • Firearms
    • Our current handbook requires employees who choose to carry a firearm to leave it in their vehicle and they are thus unprotected when they are most vulnerable walking in and out

 

[actaeon277]

Are they being monitored, or just reviewed afterwards for police or insurance?

Should be a combo of hidden, and visible cameras.

Aim cameras for faces, and for license plates.
If you get a face, they have a hard time finding them.
If you get the plate, they can't prove it's a certain person.
So, both..


Also, where will the DVR be?
Some Bad guys know they can pull that, and then the cameras are useless

 

[bwframe]

 

[Cameramonkey]

tips:
You want digital cameras. Not analog.
ONVIF compatible cameras only. No proprietary crap.
Turret cameras are better than domes. Turrets put the IR source NEXT to the lens, not around it. So spiders build their webs over the illuminator, not the lens (surrounded by a ring of IR LEDs on a dome or bullet cam)
Dont buy super cheap. They dont last and You'll pay more in the end.
Buy as much resolution as you can afford. 5 megapixel is bare minimum today.
If you cant get the camera close to the area you want to monitor, buy a varifocal camera. Even if its fixed zoom, you'll want that zoomed in as close as you can to actually capture features. (Sorry officer, our cameras are crap. He was white and wearing a red hoodie and black pants and white sneakers. )

And dont fall for the "Hikvision will hack your network" crap. That ban is strictly political and the "backdoors" everyone claims are really firmware issues relating to poor password management. No ACTUAL backdoors have been found by researchers that have been studying them for YEARS. Every documented "bAcKdOoR" is things like end users running old firmware that didnt require them to change the default password. Latest firmwares REQUIRES you to change the password on first login.

And finally, if you arent familiar, hire a pro. tuning the cams for best balanced picture between day and night is an art.

 

[grillak]

make sure that the entrances/exits from the parking areas are covered at license plate and face level. preferably the face level will have two cameras. one profile and the other head on.

and as said upthread. hire a pro. the money spent upfront will more than make up for a "we shoulda".

there is a company i will highly recommend if you want to pm me.

 

[snapping turtle]

Don't forget the software. (Hardware as long as they ONVIF can be matched to any situation you need covered for a higher price).

Software can send pixel change motion detection pop ups. (Great for stairwells. ) (great for switch view windows applications while monitoring)
Software can detect loiterers and those residentially challenged. Good for outside bathrooms as software can be set to loitering mode around these.
Software can detect falls.
Software can follow motion.
Software can interact with the microphone and speaker that some cameras come with.
Software can interact with databases. If you are going with facial identification and plate capture the things that can be done software wise are 1984 fiction come true.

Most software can do this. the better ones either do more or are easier / harder to set up correctly. Software and system training is required for everyone using the system. Admin rights are not required outside of security/IT.

As for Camera placement make the installation as alike as possible. Same placement. Same camera. Same angles. Make setting up the
environment easier All around.
Remember the rising and setting sun still cause bloom at full sunlight these cameras normally point to outside from doors with glass. Mount these in ceilings aimed downward not wall mounted. Cameras are much better on this than they used to be but this is still a very helpful

180 270 and 360 degree cameras capture are your friends for capturing the most of the area covered. the pan tilt zoom still gets all glory but coverage is key. Use PTZ's sparingly as unlike the movies they never seem to be pointed at what is happening.

When you get some ideas let me know.
I run a rather large campus environment with nearly 1000 cameras.

 

[KittySlayer]

Are they being monitored, or just reviewed afterwards for police or insurance?

Also, where will the DVR be?

Likely will not be monitored. About as useful as putting a No Guns sign on the door but not having a manned magnetometer.

I will work with vendors to put the DVR in a secure area of the building.

 

[bwframe]

We see a lot of these contraptions down here in Btown. All the Krogers have one and I've noticed them in random parking lots here and there. Looks as if there might be more than one company that does this sort of mobile security system.

LotCop

LotCop provides remote surveillance for any situation with ground-breaking security that never takes a break!

lotcop.com

 

[KittySlayer]

Thanks for all the input so far. First vendor meeting went well. I had just enough knowledge to ask a few questions and not sound like a moron. There are some amazing features and options available.

 

[wcd]

tips:
You want digital cameras. Not analog.
ONVIF compatible cameras only. No proprietary crap.
Turret cameras are better than domes. Turrets put the IR source NEXT to the lens, not around it. So spiders build their webs over the illuminator, not the lens (surrounded by a ring of IR LEDs on a dome or bullet cam)
Dont buy super cheap. They dont last and You'll pay more in the end.
Buy as much resolution as you can afford. 5 megapixel is bare minimum today.
If you cant get the camera close to the area you want to monitor, buy a varifocal camera. Even if its fixed zoom, you'll want that zoomed in as close as you can to actually capture features. (Sorry officer, our cameras are crap. He was white and wearing a red hoodie and black pants and white sneakers. )

And dont fall for the "Hikvision will hack your network" crap. That ban is strictly political and the "backdoors" everyone claims are really firmware issues relating to poor password management. No ACTUAL backdoors have been found by researchers that have been studying them for YEARS. Every documented "bAcKdOoR" is things like end users running old firmware that didnt require them to change the default password. Latest firmwares REQUIRES you to change the password on first login.

And finally, if you arent familiar, hire a pro. tuning the cams for best balanced picture between day and night is an art.

Trust the Monkey!

 

[wcd]

I manage a downtown Fort Wayne office building with parking adjacent to the building. We have recently had some aggressive homeless panhandlers approaching employees in our parking lot and yesterday had a building window broken by vandals. A couple of owners have decided we need security cameras so I have asked them to answer some questions below. I am uncertain how security cameras will eliminate these problems as they really seem like after the fact documentation, although I do have cameras at my home.

Interested in INGO input regarding security cameras purpose and their usefulness. Not looking for brands as I will do that once I begin getting vendor quotes.

Below is the email I sent to the owners:

Subject: Building / Security ~ Cameras

Before getting quotes for security cameras we need to be able to tell the potential vendors what our goal is so they can quote a system to monitor the appropriate areas. Answers to these questions will help determine how many cameras are needed and their placement.

CONCERNS ~ what is our primary concern?

• Property
  • Building and outdoor property (vandalism/damage)
  • Building access via doorways
  • Personal property (vehicles)
• People
  • Employees
  • Customers
  • Other

FEARS ~ who are we afraid of?

• Homeless
  • Trespassing
  • Mentally unstable
• Robbers/attackers
• Youth (skateboarders/vandals)
• Unhappy customers
• Accidental damage (distracted drivers)

GOALS ~ how do we want to be able to use the captured images?

• Determine when something happened?
• Copy to police
• Identify person
  • What is the purpose behind identifying the person?
    • Most homeless people have no assets and already know to police.
• Identify vehicle
  • Make/model
  • License plate
  • Impacts camera resolution and placement
• File an insurance claim
• Other?

PROTECTIONS ~ what else can be done for safety and security?

• Call 911
  • Provides a solution besides simply sending an internal email to express concern
  • This brings trained individuals to our location
  • Creates a record of problems to allow police to prioritize their patrols
• Safety Protocols
  • Read and follow regular emails sent by managers
• Situational Awareness
  • Looking out the window to determine the path between the vehicle and building is safe
    • Having key in hand to unlock doors
  • Staying off your cell phone while walking to/from car/building
    • Avoids distractions allowing you to see and hear what is going on around you
    • Keeps you focused on your personal security rather than your conversation
    • Hands are free for personal defense if necessary
• Walking in groups when leaving the building or at least have someone watch you through the window
• If working after hours moving your vehicle to the Visitor parking area so you have a clear field of view of the path from the building to the your vehicle
• Train and carry self-defense tools you are comfortable with
  • Keychains
    • Audible panic alarms
    • Car alarm button
    • Impact tools
  • Pepper spray
  • Tasers or stun guns
  • Firearms
    • Our current handbook requires employees who choose to carry a firearm to leave it in their vehicle and they are thus unprotected when they are most vulnerable walking in and out

Perhaps add a good quality edc light to the list?

 

[cburnworth]

As an IT guy and camera installer, the one thing I noticed you didn't cover was retention. Personally I love the vandal dome with color at night. There are tons of options for cameras, the bullet with mechanical zoom and get you the distance & quality. Your building layout may also cause you a few headaches, basic cable limitiation is 300', but can buy extended by several options.

 

[JCSR]

So let's say you get a perp on your camera feed. If shown to the local PD, what will happen then?

 

[bwframe]

So let's say you get a perp on your camera feed. If shown to the local PD, what will happen then?

Just guessing, but he did say Fort Wayne. Bigger city means liberal prosecutor usually? Soros funded?

 

[KittySlayer]

So let's say you get a perp on your camera feed. If shown to the local PD, what will happen then?

Nothing to recoup the thousands of dollars we will spend on a camera system. I already told them that but was told to proceed with the project anyways.

Cameras may make employees feel better but it is not going to make them any safer. Simply a talisman to give them the perception of protection. Of course when I suggest simple actions like staying off their cell phones while walking I am scoffed at.

 

[Chance]

Ah, Fort Wayne, the city where the police department moved their HQ away from Creighton Ave and into the downtown area because Eden Green was the worst crime area. BTW Eden Green butted up to the PD headquarters parking lot.

 

[BigNyaKelly]

Good locks, good cameras make for a happy life.

 

[bigretic]

Whatever you think you need in retention, triple it if your budget allows... I have many stories.

 

[tackdriver]

If I understood the OP, I think your instinct is telling you there is more to this than "What cameras do I buy, and where do I put them?"

I've seen A LOT of people/organizations jump to implement a technology 'solution' without really asking the important questions:

• What are the objectives, and in what order?
• Does this solution accomplish these objectives; and to what degree?
• What are the potential unintended consequences or problems with this solution. (This one is the silent killer.)

Internet firewall reports in private SMB size businesses are a classic case study. In short: Everybody wants them, until you ask (diplomatically) : Do you want a written record of which porn sites your managers prefer? Do you want to know how much time your employees really waste online? What action will you to need to take (and what will the reaction be)? Me: "If this is what you want, I can turn it on today." Client: "Hmmm... I need some time to blah, blah, blah... I'll let you know when to turn it on." ... and it's never mentioned again!

RE: Video Surveillance

What's the strategy for handling subpoenas and requests to retain evidence from XYZ period? This might be related to the intended purpose (vandalism or assault), but it might be law suites against your tenants, domestic wars, related to the neighbors, or even against the building owners. Ambulance chasers and a slip-and-fall?

How do you handle tenants wanting footage to fight about who parked in their space? Did somebody smoke where they weren't supposed to when nobody was there? Hall monitors are everywhere, and they love video.

Who controls access to the footage, and how is it controlled? What if your "security guy" is a voyeur, catches some "inappropriate behavior" of a tenant, then plasters it online? Are there any reporter concerns? "...evidence that ABC Inc. is having secret meetings with XYZ Co."

In the end, will the cameras solve your original problems, and are they worth the costs. Maybe, but I always recommend due diligence and discussion BEFORE installation, and include strategies for the 'bad parts' into the plan.

 

[JCSR]

Cameras won't save anyone. They will make few sheep feel safer but no one is coming to save you. There is only one way.