Selling new firearms for profit

[joekoug]

As I understand it, this is a huge no-no isn't it? I'm seeing quite a few Spike's stripped lowers on the classified in the last few days, and they have all hit the ads about a week-and-a-half-ish after AIMsurplus got in a big shipment and sold them all off in a few hours (for dirt cheap). Coincidence? Maybe - maybe not.

This just got me thinking; at what point could you get in trouble for selling a new firearm for more than you paid for it? Is it OK to factor in the cost of shipping, taxes paid (if any), and FFL transfer fee, on top of what you paid for a firearm that you are reselling?

Joe

 

[G_Stines]

I am not entirely sure. It is true that you can get in trouble for running a business without being a business on INGO. Other than that, not that I am aware of. Is it less than reputable, maybe. But a classified infraction? not that I am aware of... I could definitely be wrong though.

 

[MACHINEGUN]

 

[joekoug]

I'm not talking about INGO rules - I'm talking about legal ramifications.

 

[G_Stines]

I'm not talking about INGO rules - I'm talking about legal ramifications.

Ah. Interesting question. No legal ramifications for making money I suppose until you fall into this category. Per 18USC44 (BATFE)


(C) as applied to a dealer in fire-
arms, as defined in section
921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes
time, attention, and labor to dealing
in firearms as a regular course of
trade or business with the principal
objective of livelihood and profit
through the repetitive purchase and
resale of firearms, but such term
shall not include a person who
makes occasional sales, exchanges,
or purchases of firearms for the en-
hancement of a personal collection or
for a hobby, or who sells all or part of
his personal collection of firearms;

 

[malern28us]

Ah. Interesting question. No legal ramifications for making money I suppose until you fall into this category. Per 18USC44 (BATFE)


(C) as applied to a dealer in fire-
arms, as defined in section
921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes
time, attention, and labor to dealing
in firearms as a regular course of
trade or business with the principal
objective of livelihood and profit
through the repetitive purchase and
resale of firearms, but such term
shall not include a person who
makes occasional sales, exchanges,
or purchases of firearms for the en-
hancement of a personal collection or
for a hobby, or who sells all or part of
his personal collection of firearms;

So where would the line be drawn?

 

[dmil12]

If you are running a business buying and selling guns, probably should be an FFL. If you bought an extra one and are trying to make a idiot buck, probably grey area? Why someone would buy a new gun from a dealer then try to resell it for even higher sounds like an awful lot of work for a slim margin and alot of risk....

 

[shooter521]

So where would the line be drawn?

Wherever the ATF decides to draw it. And that's the problem.

 

[malern28us]

Wherever the ATF decides to draw it. And that's the problem.

So even selling one that I just bought and changed my mind on could be a problem?

 

[strokin7.3]

So even selling one that I just bought and changed my mind on could be a problem?

Unless you do this quite often I dont think that you will have a problem

 

[malern28us]

Unless you do this quite often I dont think that you will have a problem

I wouldnt ever admit to it on an online forum if I did.....lol

 

[joekoug]

Wherever the ATF decides to draw it. And that's the problem.

This is my point I guess. I read a while back where BATFE agents grabbed a guy at a gun show and arrested him because he was buying stuff and reselling it for a profit at the show. At what point is it illegal?

So much of these laws need to be re-written and/or clarified. Too much grey area with the legalities of firearms. I'm not even talking about our archaic NFA regulations.

 

[Bill B]

Ah. Interesting question. No legal ramifications for making money I suppose until you fall into this category. Per 18USC44 (BATFE)


(C) as applied to a dealer in fire-
arms, as defined in section
921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes
time, attention, and labor to dealing
in firearms as a regular course of
trade or business with the principal
objective of livelihood and profit
through the repetitive purchase and
resale of firearms, but such term
shall not include a person who
makes occasional sales, exchanges,
or purchases of firearms for the en-
hancement of a personal collection or
for a hobby, or who sells all or part of
his personal collection of firearms;

So even selling one that I just bought and changed my mind on could be a problem?

Are you doing it in a regular course with the principal objective of livelihood and profit? If not, don't worry about it.
eta: IANAL, TINLA

 

[IndyColtsFaithful]

So where would the line be drawn?

Depends on the judge and your 12 "peers". But if it's an assault rifle it's badddd, and causes all of America's problems. Just make sure you're selling thousands of rounds of ammunition also. Then you could do no worse.

For those reading this and not aware (or not members here, just wondering eyes... Purple = sarcasm.)

 

[IndyColtsFaithful]

This is my point I guess. I read a while back where BATFE agents grabbed a guy at a gun show and arrested him because he was buying stuff and reselling it for a profit at the show. At what point is it illegal?

So much of these laws need to be re-written and/or clarified. Too much grey area with the legalities of firearms. I'm not even talking about our archaic NFA regulations.

Call me crazy but I would venture to argue free enterprise and capitalism. But no, I guess logic wouldn't prevail here. 'cause guns are bad. we need to "control" them.

 

[Mackey]

Well, considering capitalism and the free market...

Are these hypothetical people paying taxes on their profit
Probably not. That's a problem, don't you think?
Not likely to report income from a sale of firearms when they're not an FFL holder.
Tax evasion and selling guns = jail time. Hypothetical Jail time with a hypothetical jail mate named, Bubba.

 

[itsgreg]

So even selling one that I just bought and changed my mind on could be a problem?

changing your mind is not a problem, but to buy a firearm with the intention to resell is a problem.

 

[Double T]

changing your mind is not a problem, but to buy a firearm with the intention to resell is a problem.

Not if you intend to use said profit for another to add to your collection. People do this all the time with rare guns.

Buy a limited run gun, sell for profit. Rinse, repeat until profit is enough to cover another gun.

The issue is when you are doing it solely for profit and to make a living off of it, though I am sure the BATFE would probably be less leniant from person to person.

 

[Roadie]

changing your mind is not a problem, but to buy a firearm with the intention to resell is a problem.

How exactly?

Have you SEEN our Classifieds? GunBroker? ArmsList?

 

[IndyGunSafety]

Shooter521 is right. The line is wherever ATF wants it. The posted code can be looked at 2 ways:

1. As written, this code is used to prevent hobbyists from getting FFL's to enhance their collection. The law is used to take FFL's away from those who are not truly running a for-profit business.

2. ATF's view is if you are selling guns for profit, you are dealing and need an FFL. The occasional profitable sale doesn't rise to this level. But if you buy multiple handguns (for example) ON A REGULAR BASIS and the dealer you buy from has to fill out a multiple sale form, they may have a little chat with you to see what you are doing with all of those guns. I have a customer that happened to in years past. (Not from buying from me) ATF showed up at his house after multiple - multiple handgun purchases and made him sign a document certifying that he was not dealing.