Shotgun Penetration Test

[THE BIG SITT]

Found this via Google today, thought it would be worth the read for those who use a shotgun for HD.

Shotgun Penetration With Various Rounds | The Truth About Guns

For someone like me who is extremely concerned with overpenetration in my home, I think #1 birdshot might be the best choice for my HD round. The longest shot I'd ever have to make inside my home would be 10-15 feet. I feel the #1 birdshot would do fine at that range.

Thoughts?

 

[lovemachine]

Any type of birdshot sucks as a HD around.

Stick with 00 Buck shot.

 

[billt]

Any type of birdshot sucks as a HD around.

Tell that to this guy.

 

[M67]

Close range (12 yards or in), turkey choke, birdshot, hell of a combination that is underrated

 

[THE BIG SITT]

Any type of birdshot sucks as a HD around.

Stick with 00 Buck shot.

Anything to back this up, or just opinion?

For my application, 00 is much to likely to over penetrate and cause collateral damage.

 

[THE BIG SITT]

Tell that to this guy.

Damn, and more info on this? Distance, shot type, ect?

 

[billt]

Just one of many photos like it floating out there in cyberspace. It's made the rounds on several of the, "Birdshot Is For Birds" threads. Judging by the size of the pellet wounds on the outer fringe of the main wound, it looks to be 7-1/2's or possibly smaller. Range has to be very close. 10' or less. Birdshot at close ranges is extremely lethal. Even from a 1,200 FPS ATA trap or skeet load.

 

[lovemachine]

Anything to back this up, or just opinion?

For my application, 00 is much to likely to over penetrate and cause collateral damage.

It's fact. It's been tested and proved, even here on INGO.

I can't find it right now, but I'm sure someone will find and post the testing.

 

[billt]

I think where most of these "birdshot is no good for self defense" arguments get started is in misunderstanding, or else a total misconception of RANGE. When discussing home defense with a shotgun, you're talking about very close range. Even in your larger homes, by the time it gets all the way to trigger pulling, the range will be 12' or less in most scenarios. At that range any type of 12 gauge birdshot load in any vital area is going to be lethal. The shot has little spread, as the photo clearly shows. Now, open up the range and the effectiveness goes down quickly.

A lot of people will be quick to point to the now infamous shot Dick Cheney accidently made on his friends face. That accidental shooting took place at an estimated 25 yards. His friend was peppered with shot. If that round had discharged 7 or 8 feet from his head, it would have turned it into a cloud of pink mist on the spot. There would have been nothing to post on the Internet. Range is everything with bird shot for SD work. If you are concerned about over penetration, and can keep your shots to very close range, bird shot is a very effective alternative for shotgun social work.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Tell that to this guy.

I'm calling shenanigans. If you took every piece of shot in a shell and hand placed it, you couldn't make a ragged hole like that.

I've seen first hand a near contact shot into a leg with bird shot (not the shot itself, but the aftermath in the ER) and it was nasty but shallow. The X-Ray was a crazy connect the dots game, but it definitely wasn't anything like that. I also don't believe the sternum would be so completely decimated as to not have even a bone splinter sticking out.

 

[1911ly]

Bird shot, buckshot, Both can go threw a wall. I'd go with stopping power and practice getting on target fast. I have 00 buck in the tube and keep a few slugs in the shell holder. I would not plan on my ammo not going threw a wall. I'd practice hitting your target and if you are still worried about going threw a wall then find another option other then a shotgun.

 

[Bigtanker]

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/02/25/dr-milton-wolf-caught-posting-x-rated/

This article has a pic of Tea Party candidate Milton Wolf's X-rays he posted from his ER days. There is no other info as to distanced shot size but there is some decent penetration. There is ko mention if this person lived or not either.

 

[1911ly]

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/02/25/dr-milton-wolf-caught-posting-x-rated/

This article has a pic of Tea Party candidate Milton Wolf's X-rays he posted from his ER days. There is no other info as to distanced shot size but there is some decent penetration. There is ko mention if this person lived or not either.

I couldn't get that link to work. Let's try this:

? WATCH: Tea Party Candidate For Senate Caught Posting Grisly X-Rays With Callous Comments Online

 

[rhino]

I'm calling shenanigans. If you took every piece of shot in a shell and hand placed it, you couldn't make a ragged hole like that.

I've seen first hand a near contact shot into a leg with bird shot (not the shot itself, but the aftermath in the ER) and it was nasty but shallow. The X-Ray was a crazy connect the dots game, but it definitely wasn't anything like that. I also don't believe the sternum would be so completely decimated as to not have even a bone splinter sticking out.

Agreed. Either photoshop or something else made or altered that wound.

The peripheral holes also look way too big for birdshot.

 

[poppy]

My choice of sd shotgun ammo is #1 buckshot based on data taken from this website-firearms tactical. Scroll down until you find tactical briefs#10.

 

[1911ly]

A year or so back someone posted a bunch of results from HD ammo testing. I tried to find it. Anyone remember the post? Know the URL? It was a great thread with great result pics.

 

[ModernGunner]

The shotgun wound shown in post #3 has the 'smell' of Photoshop to it, really.

The wound is a little 'too perfect', and if that were a 'real' photo, apparently that birdshot blew out all his internal organs, as well. There's just a 'black hole' in the center; no meat, bone, organs, nothing.

It's likely so that ANY 12 ga. load is lethal at virtual 'contact' distances. However, IF that photo were accurate, and created a wound that devastating, there's no doubt that same load would quite easily do the same thing to typical interior walls (most often drywall, nowadays). With 'modern' home interior building materials and (typically) <5 yds. distances encountered in a home, the possibility exists of wall penetration with a shotgun, just as with a rifle or handgun.

The 'issue' with birdshot is that each pellet has very little weight or mass, therefore penetration can become problematic. Particularly so if the BG is wearing heavier clothing like a winter coat, leather jacket or vest, etc.

Afterall, there's a reason those loads are called "birdshot" and "buckshot".

I'm not sure where the erroneous belief came from to 'use a shotgun in the home because it WON'T go through walls'. Perhaps decades ago when logs were used in homes for walls?

In trained hands at 'combat' ranges, the shotgun is a ferocious defensive firearm. But even that is no 'guarantee' of a one-shot stop, and due to the small pattern created (whatever load) at 'in the home' ranges, the shotgun is NOT a 'spray and pray' tool. It HAS the advantage of being 'ferocious', it also has the disadvantage of being cumbersome and impractical to use one-handed. One-handed use is quite likely inside a home where the defender may need to turn door knobs, flip on lights, maneuver around doorways, etc.

The choice then, really, is use a birdshot load which carries the same 'hazard' of wall penetration while PERHAPS being insuffient against a perpetrator, or 0000 and up buckshot, which also risks wall penetration but which has a proven history to be sufficient against a perpetrator.

I prefer 0000 buckshot (more pellets still of suitable weight & mass) over 00 buckshot and slugs for the defensive 12 ga., but that's solely my preference. YMMV.

 

[chezuki]

Oh good, more people advocating silliness.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I'm going to break out the bullhorn for this one...

ANYTHING THAT WILL RELIABLY PENETRATE DEEP ENOUGH TO PHYSICALLY INCAPACITATE SOMEONE WILL EASILY PASS THROUGH COMMON HOUSEHOLD BUILDING MATERIALS!!!

Birdshot has no business in a defensive gun.

Know your angles and always be sure of your target and what's behind it.

 

[rjh78]

I load 0 buck in mine. With some slugs in the side saddle for good measure.

 

[billt]

My personal choice for indoor, close range social work is the .50 BMG. Anything less and you run the risk of having the projectile bounce right off the sternum. Birdshot is for total pussies. I've seen 18 month old infants shrug off a 3" 12 gauge bird shot blast from 3 feet. Only to start crying again after they stop rolling. No penetration what so ever. Don't take the chance when your life depends on it. Anything less than the .50 BMG and you're just asking for trouble. Just be damn sure to mask your windows, and use hearing protection. Also, go with API rounds. Use what will get the job done!