So I got to thinking...what's the point of a short barrel .44 mag?

[EthanR9]

In my opinion, you answered your own question by telling us what gun got you thinking about it. "The Ruger Kodiak backpacker". BACKPACKER. It's a hiking gun. A "what if I'm attacked by a bear" gun. You can put it virtually anywhere. Think of how much smaller it would be than a 6inch barrel or any rifle. You won't be stalking anything with it, it's a last ditch save your life gun.

 

[AA&E]

Y'all are jsut wrongheaded here. You are trying to justify a snubbie .44 Mag with logic. YOu forget the power of MARKETING! I think its primarily a marketing ploy to see more revolvers, particularly in the "wilderness" oriented market. But that's just me.

I think you are onto something.

 

[AA&E]

In my opinion, you answered your own question by telling us what gun got you thinking about it. "The Ruger Kodiak backpacker". BACKPACKER. It's a hiking gun. A "what if I'm attacked by a bear" gun. You can put it virtually anywhere. Think of how much smaller it would be than a 6inch barrel or any rifle. You won't be stalking anything with it, it's a last ditch save your life gun.

But a last ditch save your life weapon, should be able to produce the muzzle velocity to save your life against the targets its being marketed as protection for. Disingenuous marketing doesn't help anyone.

 

[Drail]

I thought it was for signalling rescue aircraft.........

 

[AA&E]

I thought it was for signalling rescue aircraft.........

disabling the rescue chopper, bad idea.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

In my opinion, you answered your own question by telling us what gun got you thinking about it. "The Ruger Kodiak backpacker". BACKPACKER. It's a hiking gun. A "what if I'm attacked by a bear" gun. You can put it virtually anywhere. Think of how much smaller it would be than a 6inch barrel or any rifle. You won't be stalking anything with it, it's a last ditch save your life gun.

Where can I put it that I can't put a 6" revolver and still get to it in time to matter? How does a 2" .44 compare to a 6" .357 in terms of weight? Ballistic performance of something like a hard cast 158 gr high velocity .357 out of a 6" barrel vs anything you can put out of a 2" barrel .44? Not to mention sight radius, flinch from muzzle blast, etc. making a 6" easier to shoot.

So, marketing aside, what makes this a BACKPACKER?

 

[indiucky]

So, marketing aside, what makes this a BACKPACKER?

Nothing...

Just go ahead and get it BBI...I will do your transfer for free...You know you want one....You will find a reason to justify it later....Just get it...PM me who to send the FFL to...You will have it next week if you hit the buy it now button...Come on...All of the cool kids have one...Littletommy has one....Mammynun has one...I want one in magnum but have just a .44 Special...Come on...You can do it...Just hit the buy it now button....You can wear it IWB on your back hip and just call it the Buttpacker model...No wait...Nah...Not that...How about Hippacker model???? Yeah that's it...The Ruger "Hippacker"....

Can't you hear the siren call of the large bore snubbie?????

"BOOM!!!!! BOOM!!!!! BOOM!!!!! BOOM!!!!! BOOM!!!!! BOOM!!!!!! Come get me BBI...You know you want to feel my kick....My ballistics are not as important as what I signify...Wild places where Bear still roam...Come...Come....Hit Buy it Now.....NOW!!!!!!"

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Nothing...

Just go ahead and get it BBI...I will do your transfer for free...You know you want one....You will find a reason to justify it later....Just get it...PM me who to send the FFL to...You will have it next week if you hit the buy it now button...Come on...All of the cool kids have one...Littletommy has one....Mammynun has one...I want one in magnum but have just a .44 Special...Come on...You can do it...Just hit the buy it now button....You can wear it IWB on your back hip and just call it the Buttpacker model...No wait...Nah...Not that...How about Hippacker model???? Yeah that's it...The Ruger "Hippacker"....

Can't you hear the siren call of the large bore snubbie?????

"BOOM!!!!! BOOM!!!!! BOOM!!!!! BOOM!!!!! BOOM!!!!! BOOM!!!!!! Come get me BBI...You know you want to feel my kick....My ballistics are not as important as what I signify...Wild places where Bear still roam...Come...Come....Hit Buy it Now.....NOW!!!!!!"

Am I the only one who is uncomfortable now?

If I get another revolver any time soon it's probably going you be a Model 25.

 

[indiucky]

Am I the only one who is uncomfortable now?

If I get another revolver any time soon it's probably going you be a Model 25.

Yep.....My "uncomfortable" died January 8th...

Can't go wrong with a model 25 brother....One of my customers "Trip" is a retired Colonel and puts in one or two days a week as our resident Motorcycle Cop...He picked up a Model 25 (in .45 ACP) that someone had cut the barrel down to 4 inches (very well done I might add) and had the front sight pinned back on (also well done...It really looks factory) that he picked up on gunbroker a couple of years ago for under $500...Every now and again he gets his old N frame Don Hume rig out and packs that as his sidearm...I have to say it's kind of surreal seeing him climb off of that old Harley with Clarksville PD's old insignia on the gas tank and that big ol' honkin' N frame strapped to his side....It went for such a good price (I assume) because the collector value was not there but he says it's a heck of a shooter...Might keep your eye out for one of those...

Whatever you get you have got a free transfer down here if you so desire....You know...Spend $60 on gas to save $20 on a transfer...

 

[Hohn]

I'm not disputing any of that. I own a single action .44 because reasons...and a M1903 because reasons...and...yeah I get all that.

I'm asking specifically about practical benefits in this one, though. Other than cool factor and just because, is there any real benefit to the .44 vs .45 in a 3" barrel? On paper they look pretty same-same in terms of effectiveness. I'm just curious if I'm missing something.

IMO, the real justification for .44 in short (3") barrels is the option of much heavier bullet weights. With hardcast bullets, you can go well over 300gr in a .429 bore size. I don't know of anything over 230gr for a .45 ACP.

 

[Hohn]

Do low pressure cartridges lose less velocity out of shorter barrels because low pressures are easier to build up quickly?

You can't really say one way or the other because the "pressure" is just a peak pressure. What the bullet sees-- and what determines acceleration force is average pressure (or BMEP as we enginerds like to call it-- Brake Mean Effective Pressure).

It's the balance between the amount of powder in the charge and the rate at which it burns. You'll notice from looking at BBTI and the like that both the 9mm and the .45 gain very little with longer barrel lengths compared to what .357 and .44 mag do. Now, 9mm and .357 are both 35ksi pressure max. If peak pressure explained the response to barrel length, we'd expect to see the 9mm and .357 both perform similarly in the BBTI tests.

But they don't. .357 responds to extra barrel all the way out past 16". 9mm is gaining a mere 100fps going from 6" to 16".

The difference is that the .357 has a lot more powder behind it-- even at the same peak pressure. Necessarily it must be a slower powder, which is why there's almost no advantage to a .357 mag over a .38 in a snubbie. Looking at the reloading manual to compare a 125gr .357 and a 124gr .355 confirms this-- though both calibers are 35KSI max, one has much more velocity.


Bullet weight is a key factor too, as almost always the heavier bullets take less powder. That means that in a shorter barrel, one can minimize the differences between two cartridges by going as heavy as possible in bullet weight.


The availability of high-sectional density JHPs like the 300gr XTP would be a considerable advantage for the .44 over the 230gr .45 ACP. You could load a smaller charge of slightly faster powder and get reasonable performance from even a short barrel.

 

[Hohn]

Where can I put it that I can't put a 6" revolver and still get to it in time to matter? How does a 2" .44 compare to a 6" .357 in terms of weight? Ballistic performance of something like a hard cast 158 gr high velocity .357 out of a 6" barrel vs anything you can put out of a 2" barrel .44? Not to mention sight radius, flinch from muzzle blast, etc. making a 6" easier to shoot.

So, marketing aside, what makes this a BACKPACKER?

Let's assume we are talking hiking and looking just at hardcast loads for protection against four-legged critters. Is a slower .44 hardcast more effective than a faster .357 hardcast?

Personally, I use a measure I call "sectional momentum" which is just sectional density times velocity. This seems to me like a really good proxy for penetration, which is the name of the game for four-legged defense. Comparing a 6" .357 in 158gr to a 2" .44 i at 300gr, it's no contest-- the .357 smokes it:

Sectional density*velocity= sectional momentum
300gr .44: .233SD X~750fps= 175 (units)
158gr .357: .177SD X 1500fps= 265.5 (units)

The units would resolve to something like foot-grains per second per square inch.


If the guns are comparable in weight (as they likely are) there's very little reason, ballistically, for the snubbie .44 mag. Perhaps it's easier to deploy quickly because the short barrel handles well.

It's likely the case these guns exist only because certain guides and such in Alaska believe they are better-- true or not.


IMO, if you REALLY want to defend yourself in that case, you carry a .44 mag Mare's Leg. Far better ballistics, two-handed use, and still reasonably portable/packable.

 

[Hohn]

Yes, ANOTHER post by me only to add:

If you expect a contact shot, then the .44 will be far, far superior to the .357. Last a checked, though, contact shots against bears are highly discouraged.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Yep.....My "uncomfortable" died January 8th...

Can't go wrong with a model 25 brother....One of my customers "Trip" is a retired Colonel and puts in one or two days a week as our resident Motorcycle Cop...He picked up a Model 25 (in .45 ACP) that someone had cut the barrel down to 4 inches (very well done I might add) and had the front sight pinned back on (also well done...It really looks factory) that he picked up on gunbroker a couple of years ago for under $500...Every now and again he gets his old N frame Don Hume rig out and packs that as his sidearm...I have to say it's kind of surreal seeing him climb off of that old Harley with Clarksville PD's old insignia on the gas tank and that big ol' honkin' N frame strapped to his side....It went for such a good price (I assume) because the collector value was not there but he says it's a heck of a shooter...Might keep your eye out for one of those...

Whatever you get you have got a free transfer down here if you so desire....You know...Spend $60 on gas to save $20 on a transfer...

I may be down next Friday, just FYI. Find me a cool Model 25 for $500 and I'll give you a hug. Don't get handsy.

 

[CampingJosh]

So, marketing aside, what makes this a BACKPACKER?

Nothing whatsoever. Anyone who backpacks any serious distance will avoid extra weight like the plague.

If you actually want a .44 mag for hiking, the S&W 329PD is the best option. It's more than a pound and a half lighter than the Ruger snubbies. 4" barrel, too.

 

[EthanR9]

Where can I put it that I can't put a 6" revolver and still get to it in time to matter? How does a 2" .44 compare to a 6" .357 in terms of weight? Ballistic performance of something like a hard cast 158 gr high velocity .357 out of a 6" barrel vs anything you can put out of a 2" barrel .44? Not to mention sight radius, flinch from muzzle blast, etc. making a 6" easier to shoot.

So, marketing aside, what makes this a BACKPACKER?

If a bear is eating your face and you have a .44 to shove in his gut or face and pull the trigger I'd say you'll probably appreciate the short barrel and power of the .44 magnum. Sights won't matter. Recoil wont matter because you'll be in shock. Like I said, "last ditch". Not a 50 yard shot with a revolver. If you're hunting it would be a back up. If you're hiking it's for back up. Not expecting to use it, just making sure you have something if the need arises. It's like saying what's the point of a compact carry gun, because the sights are crap and the size will make it snappy. But if you ask the guy that shot and killed 1/3 attackers when he was being beaten to death in downtown Fort Wayne if he'd still consider his S&W bodyguard .380 that dropped the full grown man with one shot after nicking his own pinky finger while trying to hold them off of him, I believe he'd say yes. I'm not saying it's the perfect gun for any special purpose. But it's a gun, and a very powerful one at that. Small enough to fit anywhere you want it too.

 

[EthanR9]

But a last ditch save your life weapon, should be able to produce the muzzle velocity to save your life against the targets its being marketed as protection for. Disingenuous marketing doesn't help anyone.

Again, just my opinions. Depending on ammo, the muzzle velocity of .44 is greater than .357 (using .357 due to other comments). I think .44 is a great caliber for backpacking. Powerful enough for most critters. Versatile enough with different loads and . 44 special.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

If a bear is eating your face and you have a .44 to shove in his gut or face and pull the trigger I'd say you'll probably appreciate the short barrel and power of the .44 magnum. Sights won't matter. Recoil wont matter because you'll be in shock. Like I said, "last ditch". Not a 50 yard shot with a revolver. If you're hunting it would be a back up. If you're hiking it's for back up. Not expecting to use it, just making sure you have something if the need arises. It's like saying what's the point of a compact carry gun, because the sights are crap and the size will make it snappy. But if you ask the guy that shot and killed 1/3 attackers when he was being beaten to death in downtown Fort Wayne if he'd still consider his S&W bodyguard .380 that dropped the full grown man with one shot after nicking his own pinky finger while trying to hold them off of him, I believe he'd say yes. I'm not saying it's the perfect gun for any special purpose. But it's a gun, and a very powerful one at that. Small enough to fit anywhere you want it too.

Unless the bear is also a ninja, I figure I'd be aware of his presence prior to face chewing. I might want a little more distance for my first shot than contact shooting, but each to their own. I can make a 50y shot just fine with a 4" revolver. Sights matter if you train to use them. While not a bear, I've shot an attacking dog after it bit me and was circling for an opening to attack again and I saw and used my sights. Recoil matters in terms of follow up shots, regardless of "shock".

I carry a full size pistol daily, so I don't have to consider the trade offs of crappy sights and marginal calibers. Can you win with one? Sure. People win gun fights by noise alone sometimes, they fire and their opponent forfeits and exits the field. However people also lose because they missed or because they just wounded the guy, even fatally, but left him enough time to continue the attack.

 

[Lil Bob]

I would have to agree 44 magnum short barrel is great protection when needed. A whole lot of power.

 

[shibumiseeker]

Unless the bear is also a ninja, I figure I'd be aware of his presence prior to face chewing.

Keep thinking that and you may well get your face chewed off.

Of the encounters with griz I have had, both of which caused me to damn near crap my shorts but luckily left my face and other parts intact, I was not aware of their presence until I was about 30-40' away from them. And I can guarantee you that I am a whole lot more situationally aware out in the woods than most people. Those things are FAST. Way faster than the baddest cranked up perp you have ever dealt with. Way faster than that dog. A 500lb animal that is that big and lumbering should by all rights not be able to move that fast. Fast enough that they can almost cover that 50 yards and be on you before you can get the damn gun clear of the holster. Less than 3 seconds to cover 50 yards from a dead stop. If it is on a collision course with you when you shoot it that 500lbs is going to mow you down.