so what makes a .410 an "experts" shotgun?

[.356luger]

ive heard alot of folks on here dub the 410 as such and im just curious what criteria makes it expert?

 

[Manatee]

The amount of shot is about 1/2 that of a 12 gauge. When I used to shoot skeet, the .410 was a tad more difficult to score with.

 

[cosermann]

Smaller payload = Less room for error.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

The amount of shot is about 1/2 that of a 12 gauge. When I used to shoot skeet, the .410 was a tad more difficult to score with.

This is it in a nut shell.

It's a lot harder to hit your target with half as much shot being thrown.

A little "easier", but still on the small side, would be 28ga.

-J-

 

[.356luger]

i see so it only lacks on the flying targets

 

[teddy12b]

i see so it only lacks on the flying targets

The 410 doesn't lack anything. You just have to be a better shot with it and you'll take any game with a 410 that you could have taken with any other shotgun.

 

[.356luger]

The 410 doesn't lack anything. You just have to be a better shot with it and you'll take any game with a 410 that you could have taken with any other shotgun.

oh i fully agree im just trying to better understand the misconception and down play the round gets without causing a "round war" and to open discussion on the practicality of shotguns in general. Ive never had a problem with a 410 in hitting what i was aiming at i shot at 4 clays and hit 1 with a 2" judge while shooting one day. No the clay didnt explode im no tom nap.

i think shotguns all have a category they excell in whether its giving a season shooter more of a challenge or reducing kick for small frame people or recoil sensitive to home defense. I rather enjoy a good debate

 

[Hookeye]

The 410 doesn't lack anything. You just have to be a better shot with it and you'll take any game with a 410 that you could have taken with any other shotgun.

I wouldn't use it for goose hunting at 50 yards

 

[snapping turtle]

Most of the old shotguns in 410 had very tight choke and add in 1/2 the shot.

 

[Manatee]

The 410 doesn't lack anything. You just have to be a better shot with it and you'll take any game with a 410 that you could have taken with any other shotgun.

Yah....not really. .410 range is not the same as a 12 ga. What works on the skeet field does not work on the trap range.

 

[Hookeye]

Chip a clay and it counts.

I've seen big steel at distance blow feathers of geese, watched 'em fly away.

Bismuth however makes 'em slam the dirt.

 

[Expat]

I have never seen even good shotgunners take them grouse hunting...

 

[.356luger]

Yah....not really. .410 range is not the same as a 12 ga. What works on the skeet field does not work on the trap range.

the same could be said of a 22 and a 223 half the payload roughly, less range, and people consider the 22 a fantastic starter gun?

doesnt a 22 display many of the characteristics of a 410 low recoil, less range, can be adapted to teach ergonomics of a gun ie 410 mossy 500 20ga mossy 500 savage 93r22 savage 110 SA detachable mag 22ar upper ect ,teach basic shooting skills, cheek weld, bead alignment?

understandably the 410 has limitations in hunting but is it just the skeet/trap group that consider it an expert gun?

 

[teddy12b]

22's and 410's have long been used to start people out in the shooting sports because of less recoil, and a percieved idea that somehow they are less lethal. There was a great review a guy put online where he wrapped a turkey in a flannel shirt and shot it at 300 yards with a 22lr. He punched right through the thing a couple times if I remember right. Most people know that a 22lr doens't stop at 50 yards, but they don't understand that a 22lr can still be used to make a long range hit and let the air & blood out of a target relatively easily. Similar arguement could be said for a 410 vs a 12ga. Just because a 410 doesn't have the same spread as a 12ga doesn't make it any less lethal if it hits you, it just means there's more room for error. A 410 might make a clean miss on an negligent discharge, when a 12ga might have gotten a chunk of something. In either of these cases of 22lr vs 223 or 410 vs 12ga it's not a case of a less lethal gun, it's a matter of people percieving it as a less lethal gun.

As far as people not using a 410 for as many hunting purposes goes, I don't think most guys would travel all the way to the dakota's and pay the money for a trip and hunt and bring a shotgun that's not going to give them the best chance for a clean kill despite their skill levels. Shooting a pheasant with a 12ga allows for some margin of error and a bird still goes down. Shooting a pheasant with a 410 better be a good solid shot or that bird isn't going to drop. Does that kind of help?

 

[.356luger]

22's and 410's have long been used to start people out in the shooting sports because of less recoil, and a percieved idea that somehow they are less leathal?

This is what i mean why start some one out with an expert gun its contradictory? Me personally i think its the situation that makes this an expert's caliber not the caliber itself.

I have no bearing on the lethality of the 410 just like every other gun in hunting you always want to tip the scales in your favor as there are enough variables in the game already.

 

[teddy12b]

If you start a kid out with a 22lr or 410, he's going to learn the fundamental skills of marksmenship and hunting at short range. If you start a kid out with a 300 win mag or a 10ga goose gun all that kid is going to learn when they get back up to their feet is that their shoulder hurts really bad and that they don't like to shoot/hunt anymore. Shooting a rifle/shotgun that's got as little recoil as possible and the focus can be on skills. If the SHTF I'd put a hillybilly kid with 22lr who knows how to hunt up against a 350# computer tech with a 300win mag who spends too much time on the internet. Does that make a little more sense? Small calibers are starting places, not finish lines. If you learn the marksmenship with a 22lr then you can learn a 30-06 for elk hunting later in life.

 

[snapping turtle]

If the FPS of the pellet is say 800 FPS and the pellet is a 7 shot or4 shot they will behave the exact same way if fired from a 410
or a 12 gauge. Physics is physics.

Since a 12 gauge is the most popular round for sales of shells the cost is lower than the 410. Supply and demand and markets of
scale are in play here so: prices is prices.

That said I wanted a 410 at 11 years old bad. When I opened a long cardboard box on Christmas Day it contained a youth Stevens single shot 20 gauge shotgun. Of course I did not say anything for years but dad said he wanted to give me As better chance at bunnies and a bigger chunk of lead for deer. He said a 410 was an experts gun. A 20 gauge was a youth gun. I never argued with my dad. So I guess the answer will be "because dad said it was."

 

[Hookeye]

With shotshells, kills are usually made by the effects of multiple pellet strikes. That means not just shot size is considered, but also choke and payload.
It all works together.

So less hits very well could mean less lethal.

BTW, I started with a 20 gauge

 

[Zoub]

If the FPS of the pellet is say 800 FPS and the pellet is a 7 shot or4 shot they will behave the exact same way if fired from a 410
or a 12 gauge. Physics is physics."

except for the one thing that few people seem to know about and is rarely written about...........different size shot perform differently in different size stacks of shot. Diameter, height of the shot column and shot size do affect the pattern. In general 6 shot is the largest shot you should use in a .410 before going to a 20 gauge.

Then of course the Ft/lbs per shot are an issue.

One problem with a lot of .410's is they are not sized for youth in terms of LOP. So a gun that is too long, does not fit and tossing a light load will not make hits. The shooter develops poor form, flinches, takes a beating and has very little success.


The reason 410's often run full choke is so it can be lethal to 30 yards. A tight choke with a small load makes it very easy to miss inside 20 yards and the lack of shot quickly creates holes in the pattern equal to or greater then the small game being hunted.

When you train a shooter you want them to be successful and in general the .410 does not allow for that. Even with adults the .410 is a handicap for most. If I am using my Model 42 I have certain zen like confidence from shooting that gun for 44 years BUT the first time I shot it, it was damn near as long as I was tall, less then ideal.

 

[RLC]

It's all a matter of pellet density in the pattern. The range is very similar but you've got a whole lot less shot in the pattern. I've loaded thousands of rounds in all gauges (except 16) and use to pattern them all on greased steel. The diameters of similarly choked guns say 12g and 410g are also very similar but a lot less dense . 410 with a tight choke will powder clays like a 12g when your on target . I've seen some shooters stone wild birds at 40-50 yards with a 410....