Springfield M1A or DPMS AR-10?

[red_zr24x4]

I'm currently shooting both. 2 Springfield M1-A's. A SOCOM 16, and a Camp Perry National Match. My .308 AR is a DPMS AP-4 .308 Carbine. To be honest I love all 3. The SOCOM 16 offers a lot of firepower in a small package. The National Match is a bit heavy, and a more specialized target rifle. The DPMS AP-4 is less ammo sensitive than the M1-A models because of it's direct impingement gas system. With the M1-A models you have to use ammo with mid range bullet weights, (150-165 grains). And a powder with a mid range burn rate. Varget and IMR 3031 are both good choices. If you use too slow burning powder you can have problems like bent op rods, etc. The DPMS is much more forgiving when it come to powder and bullet weights. Again, this is because it is not a piston design, and is less sensitive in that area.

I don't know about your M1A's but my owners manual and the one on SAI's web page disagrees with your statement on the ammo type to use.
I will state that I do load my .308 for my M1A with the same type of powder and bullet weight as I do for my .30-06 for my Garands. As for the SAI owners manual recommendation -

The M1A is designed and built to specifications to shoot standard factory .308 made to SAAMI specifications or 7.62x51 NATO ammunition. The specifications for standard
military ammunition include harder primers to withstand the slight indentation from the firing pin when the bolt chambers a cartridge. This slight indentation is normal.

 

[billt]

This is so important Springfield publishes a list of ammunition you should, and should not use in the M1-A rifle. Federal makes gun specific loads for both the M1-A, as well as the M1 Garand. You are correct about the 7.62 MM NATO designation ammo. It is what the M1-A should use. You should not use hunting .308 ammo that is loaded with slow burning powder. The pressure curve is too long, and as I mentioned it will cause problems like bent op rods. The M1-A is also prone to slam fires, where the AR-10 platform of .308 rifles is not.

The AR-10 platform of .308 rifles does not have this type of sensitivity to ammunition, and can fire all types of .308 ammunition, and all 7.62 MM NATO ammo. 7.62 NATO ammo is loaded to less pressure than many .308 rounds. The exact opposite is true of the 5.56 MM NATO round. It is loaded to HIGHER pressures than it's commercial counterpart, the .223.

 

[red_zr24x4]

billt,
Can you point out this list from Springfield ?
I got my M1A in 2011 new, I have no list, so far no-one on the M14 forum, M14 Forum - M14 Forum for M14 M1A Rifles has knowledge of said list.
The only thing I can find in my manual and on the Springfield web site is the use of reloads and the bit up thread I copied and pasted from Springfield here -

"The M1A is designed and built to specifications to shoot standard factory .308 made to SAAMI specifications or 7.62x51 NATO ammunition. The specifications for standard
military ammunition include harder primers to withstand the slight indentation from the firing pin when the bolt chambers a cartridge. This slight indentation is normal. "

Now the slight indentation they're talking about is from the floating firing pin, the same style that is in the M1A, M1 Garand, AR, SKS .

Back to the M14 forum, Most people over there seem to like the 168g bullet, although some have posted using the 173g match bullet originally used in the M1 Garand match, and 180g - 190g during matches.

I agree with you about the heavy bullet and to slow / to fast powder in the M1 Garand and to an extent in the M1A . But I think the M1a is more forgiving. I also believe the AR is just as susceptible to these things, to fast of a powder and you're driving the bolt rearward to fast which can cause damage to the back of the BCG and the buffer.

 

[billt]

billt, Can you point out this list from Springfield ?

This is a similar list to the one I have. I believe they have a more updated one available now. You can E-Mail them and they'll send it to you. Mine came in a [pdf] file that I printed out. I've long since deleted it.

Springfield Armory Ammo Recommendations - M14 Forum

 

[billt]

There is a good way around all of this ammo selection business, that will allow you to fire almost ANY type, or pressure ammunition in a Springfield M1-A rifle. That is to purchase a Schuster Adjustable Gas Valve. Dillon Precision sell them. You simply remove the factory gas plug, and install the Schuster. It adjusts with an Allen Wrench, and with it you can meter just enough gas to cycle the action with any load. Start with the valve in the almost full open position, and close it off in small increments until the action cycles reliably.

Just watch when you purchase it that you get the correct one for your rifle. They make different ones for both the Standard length M1-A, and another model for the SOCOM series.

http://www.dillonprecision.com/content/p/8/stype/?searchVar=Schuster+Adjustable+Gas+Valve

 

[Paul30]

I have never owned the M1A but they do feel nice and have a historical value. I considered the Scout model. I have owned an AR10T, the T or Target model has the longer barrel and will shoot sub moa groups. The AR platform is unlimited, specifically designed to modify in any way you want. I put a target trigger in mine and had a good scope on it. I could actually put 3 bullets in the same hole at 100 yards. M1A is cool, but I would not trade the AR10 for anything. As far as how loud it is, unless you put a brake on it that directs the gas back at you it should be the same noise level as any other rifle. With the AR10 you could change uppers and run different calibers such as the 243 or 300 WSM.

 

[Patriot3]

I voted m1a, the only time a ar10 ive owned worked was when it was sitting still. I may have had just one bad experience, but the closest thing to an ar10 that was absolutely perfect functionally was the scar 17. Otherwise the m1a is the best. the scar 17 is the best of all three though.

 

[red_zr24x4]

billt, I don't mean to keep calling you out on this, but...
The first quote below you state 150-165g ammo with a mid range powder, but your link in the second quote clearly states 147- 180g. How do you know what burn rate powder Winchester, Remington, etc uses?

With the M1-A models you have to use ammo with mid range bullet weights, (150-165 grains). And a powder with a mid range burn rate. Varget and IMR 3031 are both good choices.

This is a similar list to the one I have. I believe they have a more updated one available now. You can E-Mail them and they'll send it to you. Mine came in a [pdf] file that I printed out. I've long since deleted it.

Springfield Armory Ammo Recommendations - M14 Forum

From link-
For the best accuracy we would recommend 168 grain Federal Match or Black Hills ammunition.

You may use any factory .308 ammunition made to SAAMI spec.


You can us military surplus 7.62x51 as long as it has NATO stamp on it.

You can use anywhere from 147-180 grain.

Commercial .308 Winchester is also the correct round

· Winchester Silver Tip is ok to use (hunting ammo)

· We use the British NATO RG head stamp

· Use FMJ, HP, or Ballistic Tip type rounds.
175 grain is recommended for moose hunting

· 168 grain is recommended for deer hunting

· 168 grain is recommended for best accuracy

· Hornady Ballistic Tip or Winchester Fail Safe is recommended for hunting

 

[billt]

billt, I don't mean to keep calling you out on this, but...
The first quote below you state 150-165g ammo with a mid range powder, but your link in the second quote clearly states 147- 180g. How do you know what burn rate powder Winchester, Remington, etc uses?

You don't have to know. It's common knowledge slower powder is used to propel heavier bullets. Any loading manual ever written will prove that common fact. M1-A rifles REQUIRE A MID RANGE POWDER TO ACHIEVE THE PROPER PRESSURE CURVE. This is necessary to not over stress the action. Now you don't have to believe me, I don't care either way. But use too slow burning of a powder, and your going to bend your op rod at the very least. If you use most all 7.62 X 51 MM NATO ammunition, you will have a safe round to fire.

Most all of that ammo falls into the bullet weight range that I mentioned, and is loaded with a powder that will safely function gas operated semi autos. Federal even makes one just for the M1-A. If you want to shoot heavier bullets, you're taking your chances, unless you handload them with a powder that maintains the proper pressure curve, that will allow a sufficient drop in pressure before the bullet uncovers the gas port. If you don't handload, and shoot an M1-A, stay away from heavy weight .308 ammo, and you'll more than likely be OK.

 

[sig1473]

Been shooting .308 out of my Socom and Standard M1A for over 5 years. I have yet to bend an OpRod. I'm calling bull-spit. And I have never seen this so-called Federal M1A ammo They make a special ammo for the M1 Garand and that is the only one I have seen or heard of.
Here is a good link that pretty much debunks you can't shoot above 150GR. Read #12.
Commercial ammo safe in a modern SA M1A? - M14 Forum

 

[billt]

And I have never seen this so-called Federal M1A ammo

Federal American Eagle 7.62x51 M1A 168gr OTM 20rds A76251M1A - Rifle Ammunition - Ammunition

Google is your friend. It's everywhere.

 

[Mark 1911]

They're all good, but the M1A is one fine piece of American history.

 

[billt]

Federal .308/7.62X51 : FEDERAL AMERICAN EAGLE 7.62X51 168GR M1A

Federal American Eagle Ammo 7.62x51mm 168 Grain Open Tip Match Ammo For M1A Rifles Ammunition

 

[church]

Because bacon trumps all.

 

[sig1473]

Federal American Eagle 7.62x51 M1A 168gr OTM 20rds A76251M1A - Rifle Ammunition - Ammunition

Google is your friend. It's everywhere.

Hmmm....I guess suckers are born every minute.

 

[sig1473]

Federal .308/7.62X51 : FEDERAL AMERICAN EAGLE 7.62X51 168GR M1A

Federal American Eagle Ammo 7.62x51mm 168 Grain Open Tip Match Ammo For M1A Rifles Ammunition

That's funny that it is "specially" made for the M1A, because the Federal 308 Gold Medal I shoot has the same muzzle velocity and energy. People that actually fall for that is hilarious.
Federal Premium Gold Medal Ammo 308 Winchester 168 Grain Sierra

 

[billt]

Hmmm....I guess suckers are born every minute.

That's funny that it is "specially" made for the M1A, because the Federal 308 Gold Medal I shoot has the same muzzle velocity and energy. People that actually fall for that is hilarious.

Stop proving your total ignorance.

1.) People who purchase these rounds are not "suckers". They are doing so because they want to be sure they are using ammunition with the correct pressure curve in their rifle.

2.) Just because a round matches velocity and energy, does not mean it is loaded with the correct powder, and has the correct pressure curve to safely be fired in a gas piston, semi auto rifle like the M1-A.

But if you knew anything about handloading you would know that. Your knowledge extends as far as what you read on the back of the ammo box, and little else. About all you've "proven", is how little you know, along with how long you've gotten away with it. I pity the individual who purchases a used weapon from you.

 

[Cerberus]

Federal Gold Medal and Federal American Eagle are used rather interchangeably by many long time M1A shooters.

Modern M1As are made to shoot all SAAMI spec ammo.

 

[red_zr24x4]

Modern M1As are made to shoot all SAAMI spec ammo.

That's the point I was trying to make to billt,
First was his post about only using 150-165g bullets when the goto bullet is usually the 168g. not to mention the 173g match ammo for the M1A and Garand.
Next would be his post about medium burn rate powders, does anyone know what powder Winchester or Remington use? What burn rate it is?
Then there's the link he posted supposedly from SAI which states up to 180g, but he still wont admit it.

Now for the M1 Garand, I'll agree with the medium burn rate, but not his choice of bullet weight...173g match.

 

[sig1473]

That's the point I was trying to make to billt,
First was his post about only using 150-165g bullets when the goto bullet is usually the 168g. not to mention the 173g match ammo for the M1A and Garand.
Next would be his post about medium burn rate powders, does anyone know what powder Winchester or Remington use? What burn rate it is?
Then there's the link he posted supposedly from SAI which states up to 180g, but he still wont admit it.

Now for the M1 Garand, I'll agree with the medium burn rate, but not his choice of bullet weight...173g match.

Precisely and I totally agree with you. Even the link posted by SAI says 308 168GR is safe to use. Next, I am attacked for being ignorant Sounds like a grumpy old man so whatever. He obviously knows more than the manufacturers at Springfield so maybe he should be running the show over there with all his knowledge.