Surplus or brand new, Garand

[parsimonious]

I have considered getting a garand off and on, most recently off when I
learned that modern 30-06 is hotter than wartime ammo.

So if one gets a surplus rifle from a gun show, CMP, etc. how important is it
to find surplus ammo, or ammo labeled specifically for m-1's?
I just seen that they make that.30-06 M1 Garand Ammo For Sale - 150 gr FMJ - Federal American Eagle Ammo Online

Would it be better to buy a new one and not worry about the rifle exploding?
Or is m-1 ammo readily available? Or is modern ammo a no go in modern rifles also?

 

[meyer4589]

There is M2 ball out there to shoot. If you want to run the modern stuff I think all you need in the rifle is an adjustable gas plug, but im not 100% sure. Some of the other guys will probably confirm this for sure.

 

[ol' poke]

Modern 30-06 is typically loaded hotter than M2 ball. If it's too hot, you could bend the op-rod. My M1 likes the Greek surplus I purchased from the CMP a few years back. Not sure if there is more of that, though. Give 'em a call. I'd stick with the surplus M2 ball.

ol' poke

 

[BE Mike]

I recently installed the adjustable gas plug. Once adjusted to the ammo, it eliminates the worry about bending the operating rod. It also seems to enhance accuracy. I still prefer to stick with ammo suited to the old Garand. I have some surplus, but also load my own.

 

[DragonGunner]

Plenty of CMP ammo for the Garand, an alot cheaper as well. But buying new Garand friendly ammo isn't that hard. Decide what you want to shoot, surplus or commercial. If commercial ammo then buy a adjustable gas plug for your Garand an your good to go.

 

[BigMoose]

Once again, the adjustable gas plug is old technology.

Someone did some authoritative studies with the Garand and modern 30-06 and found that a gas plug with more space inside delayed the pulse long enough to eliminate any issues.

Enter the Garand Gear ported gas plug, no rejetting, works with all 30-06 ammo out of the box with safe levels of pressure.

Shooting Commercial Ammunition in your M1 Garand

Ported Gas Plug


Alternatively, CMP has 308 Garands, the factory loaded 175 grain and lighter 308 cartridge has been proven incapable of generating a gas pulse high enough to damage the Garand gas system.

 

[downzero]

I just load my own ammo with 150 grain bullets.

 

[BigMoose]

I just load my own ammo with 150 grain bullets.

Just because it's 150 doesn't make it okay, it depends on the powder you use. You have to use the older style powder.

That is one reason I chose to show the graph of the Fiochhi 150 FMJ.

 

[Barry in IN]

I have considered getting a garand off and on, most recently off when I
learned that modern 30-06 is hotter than wartime ammo.

So if one gets a surplus rifle from a gun show, CMP, etc. how important is it
to find surplus ammo, or ammo labeled specifically for m-1's?
I just seen that they make that.30-06 M1 Garand Ammo For Sale - 150 gr FMJ - Federal American Eagle Ammo Online

Would it be better to buy a new one and not worry about the rifle exploding?
Or is m-1 ammo readily available? Or is modern ammo a no go in modern rifles also?

I'm not sure what the intent was, but I'm seeing two questions here.
1) What ammo should be used in a Garand?
2) Should I buy an original or new production Garand?

For the first question, I've probably heard 500 people say you have to use ammo loaded with a powder with a burn rate close to IMR 4895. I have yet to hear any of them say they know this from the firsthand experience. Everybody has heard of it, but I haven't found anyone who has seen it, and none who has produced any test data. The closest I've seen actually recorded on paper was in one of Jim Thompson's Garand books, where he tested the theory with some .30-06 factory ammo loaded with 220 grain bullets. His shoulder gave out before the operating rod did.
I'm not saying there isn't something to it, because I think their is. I'll get to that in a minute. I'm not so sure it's a clear cut as some think.

Maybe half of those giving the warning take it a step further, and say you have to use 150 grain bullets and never any heavier. That is flat wrong. Or incomplete. The Garand was designed for the Caliber .30M1 cartridge (Rifle, not Carbine), which used a 174 grain bullet at 2650 fps. This round was replaced by the Caliber .30 M2 cartidge, which used a 152 grain bullet at 2805 fps, but not until 1940. The Garand was adopted in Jan 1939 after many years of development and testing with the old .30M1 (174 grain bullet) cartridge.
The bullet alone doesn't cause the trouble.

I think this all comes from when the Garand ruled the service rifle class in Highpower. When I started Highpower in 1989, the Garand was barely hanging on. Some used them, but not that many, at least where I started (An American Legion league NW of Chicago). But there were stories from not long before about what some people had tried. They would load try to get a good warm long range load for them by loading them with 180-200 grain bullets and 4350 powder, which was surplus and cheap from Hodgdon. This is hearsay too, but I at least heard it from the culprits sometimes. They would fill the case with 4350, compress it with a heavy bullet and try their new magic load at longer ranges, only to damage the rifle.

I don't think it was just the slow powder. Or the heavy bullets. It might have taken the two together, but what they did was even more. Every case of this I've heard of used the heavy bullet, the slow powder, AND a stiff charge of that powder. It sounds like it took that combination to do it. I've never heard of anyone loading 4350 and 180-200 grain bullets, but with a light to moderate charge, but I'm not sure why you would. They used the slow powder to boost the heavy bullets faster, and they needed a lot of it. And these are the ones I heard of giving trouble.
It seemed to take the combination of all three: heavy bullet, slow powder, heavy charge of that powder. I think this stuck in people's heads so when they heard any of those three ingredients, they jumped to conclusions.
"What? You're using 180s? Ol' Bob tore up his Garand in '68 shooting 180s! Them's bad news!" Never mind that ol' Bob used the slowest powder available at the time and lots of it.

As for the second question, if there was one:
If you are asking if you should get a new-production Garand instead of an original, I'd suggest you don't.
I didn't know they were making them again. I had one of the new Springfield Armory (the Illinois SA Inc) for a while, only because I was doing some trading and there was nothing else in the store remotely interesting.
One of the best things about a GI Garand is the receiver. It's a serious piece of forged steel. The material was the best available, and they kept improving the receivers with little changes as production went on. If you look at a receiver from around 1940-42, then look at one from 1945, you should see some differences. You almost have to put the side by side, but you will see places where the contour changed or it got thicker.
The SA Inc receiver is a casting, and while a good casting is OK, I was underwhelmed. The lines and contours looked a little sloppy next to a GI receiver though not too bad, but looked rougher inside. The area that forms the firing pin tag's camming slot (that you can't count on on a GI gun) was really bad looking. One functional problem with the receiver was that the grooves cast in where the rear sight's elevation knob's teeth fit were really shallow, so there was very little engagement and it wouldn't hold zero no matter how tight I got the pinion.
And, while this is based on no evidence of anything whatsoever, I'm less confident of a cast receiver on a gun that was not originally designed for a cast receiver.

Aside from the receiver, my SA Inc had a lot of "mystery parts". There were some Beretta parts on mine (which are pretty good parts actually) but a lot of the parts were not marked. Most of those were small and/or low stress parts, but not all. The operating rod had no markings on mine.

The stock was pretty bad too. I think they used a Boyd's stock, and it was way oversized. It fit the barreled action OK, thing but compared to a GI stock it looked like a stock blank. It could have used a few ounces of wood taken off.

Now, if you're talking about a "new" rifle built on a GI receiver by Fulton armory or DSG or someone, that's a different thin entirely.

Like I said, I only got it because I had some credit owed from a trade. I thought it might be nice as a loaner, to keep my old ones from getting scratched up, but even that couldn't justify it sticking around and i traded it after a couple of years.
It did shoot pretty well, I have to admit. Not better than a good original, but maybe a little better than an average one. In a way, that was a disappointment, because I hoped the new barrel and tight stock would do even better.

When I got mine, the new SA Inc Garand cost more than an original, but old ones have gone up so much that may not be the case. People told me back then that they'd like a new one so they would get a warranty, and would pay extra just to get that. I didn't agree with that thinking. If you get an old one from the CMP, they WILL take care of you if there is a problem. I've heard enough stories to know that.
Besides, what can go wrong? If it worked in 1945, it should work now, even after six rebuilds.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

To piggyback, what should you look for when purchasing a used M1? What trouble spots are common? What parts are pricey to fix? LGS has an original Springfield @ $700, but I would also qualify for CMP.

 

[LarryC]

I have a used GI issued M1 Garand and agree with Barry in IN, I have shot some commercial ammo thru mine with no visible damage. That was before I read about the OP rod damage possibility. So I did purchase an adjustable gas plug even though I researched the web to find people that actually could say they did have OP rod damage and didn't find any. I purchased 800 rounds from CMP - Greek ammo for about $110.00 / 200 hundred in ammo box (including shipping) this year - have not found any place that sells decent ammo cheaper. If you qualify for CMP, in my opinion that is the place to purchase the Garand. You can purchase a rack grade for around $700 shipped, or a completely rebuilt one with new barrel, stock and gauged parts for around $1000 (CMP special grade). It is somewhat of a hassle to become registered at CMP - Proof of citizenship, age - have to belong to an affiliated club, either be over 65, or a vet, or show proof of shooting at a CMP authorized match (affiliated club matches are authorized) and have some of the documentation notarized. But once your background check and paperwork is approved the gun can be shipped directly to your door. (No tax either).

 

[Barry in IN]

The cheapest way to meet the CMP-affiliated club requirement, as far as I know, is to join the Garand Collector's Association.
The Garand Collectors Association
I believe it's still only $20, and you get the newsletter/magazine which is pretty informative anyway.
I was told recently that you can join the GCA right there at the Port Clinton (Camp Perry) OH CMP facility if you go there to pick one out, but I don't know that firsthand.

What to look for, and what is costly to replace?

The first thing to check s the bore, which I guess is no different than any other rifle. Between the jointed GI steel cleaning rods, need to clean fro the muzzle, and need to do it often because of the old corrosive primed ammo, the rifling near the muzzle gets "erased" in some.
Some people make a big deal over throat erosion and want it to gauge a low number on the throat erosion gauges they carry around, but I think that's only part of the info. There is an article online somewhere by Bruce Woodford that explains it better than I can, but in short: Without knowing the throat size when new, you can't tell how much it's worn now.
Example Barrel A might have been a little larger when new but still in spec, so even if it never had a round through it, it might gauge a 2 or 2.5 today.
Example Barrel B was tighter when new. It may have been a 1 or even a 0. Now it gauges a 1.5-2. This low number one sounds better, but it could be rougher in the throat because it had actual erosion from use.

After that, I'd check the gas cylinder and op rod piston for wear. They both wear, and can let gas blow past affecting function.
Good gas cylinders are getting expensive. They've gone from $40 to over $100 in a few years. Besides wear in their bore, they were also removed whenever possible as part of the cleaning process so the splines that engage the grooves in the barrel can be worn. Grab onto it and see if you can twist it side to side on the barrel.

Checking the amount of wear of the gas cylinder's bore and the op rod's piston is harder to do without pulling it apart and using gauges or at least a snap gauge and mike. Otherwise, about all you can do is tell if it's gotten really sloppy. With the bolt closed, hold the rifle horizontally, stick a couple of fingers into the opening slot in the bottom of the upper handguard, and see if you can wiggle the op rod. Most will move, so it takes a few to get a feel for what's really worn.
The cylinder is larger toward the rear, so if the bolt is open, the rod will wiggle for certain because the piston is in the larger diameter area.

If the gas cylinder and/or op rod piston is worn, you can have a new piston silver soldered on the op rod. They come in oversize versions too, so they can counter a worn cylinder.
A place in OH rebuilds them. I'll get their website later. I think it's around $40-50 for a new piston tip install.

If you can get it apart, you can make a gauge set of sorts from Magnum rifle cases and check the cylinder's bore. Through sheer luck on our part, the diameter at the belt of Magnum rifle cases (7mm Rem Mag, .300 Win Mag, etc) falls right in the gas cylinder diameter ranges. The gas cylinder max inner diameter should be .531". I sorted through some cases and found they ran a few different diameters, so I measured them and wrote the size on them in black Sharpie. Now I have a gauge set.

The op rod wears at the rear end too. It runs in a track in the receiver, and when it gets worn, they jump the track. All of them I've looked at are worn. Even if the rest of the rifle is in new condition, that lug will be worn some. I guess it's from 70 years of locking the action open, closing it, locking it open, over and over.
The bottom lug should be .100" thick, with a tolerance of -.005". My rifles run more like .085-.090.
This is another thing you'll just have to get a feel for, unless you can take it apart and measure. If it's worn bad, it's pretty obvious though- The op rod will be easy to pull down and away from the receiver.
The same place that can replace the piston can weld up and re-machine this area if needed.

After the bore, gas cylinder, and op rod, most of the metal parts are relatively cheap. Most parts are $20 or less from most places. Small things like screws, springs, and pins can be $2 to $10.
If you do have function problems, it's likely to be from the parts in the follower/follower arm area. Most of those parts run $4 to $15, so you can replace everything in there and might not top $50.
Trigger group parts cost a little more, but you shouldn't have to ever replace any unless the rifle had been abused at some point.
The bolt itself costs a little, but again, it takes abuse to hurt it. The small parts of it are cheap.

This is one of the beauties of it. If you have a good barrel, gas cyl, and op rod, you are pretty much set for over 50 years of use. Even if you do have to replace one of those big things, or even two, you should get your money's worth over the next few decades.

 

[jve153]

the service grade rifles at cmp are going for $675, and i have shot a lot of them. I have never been disappointed. proof of citizenship, all paperwork, etc. also have to belong to affiliated club (RWVA, aka Appleseed qualifies, membership is $20.00/year) and have to take a marksmanship class (appleseed again qualifies). they can ship the rifle directly to your door without going to a local FFL. or you can go and make the trip to camp perry, ohio, and pick one out yourself. i would go surplus, and service grade, as they will be a better shooting rifle than the rack grade.

http://www.thecmp.org for more information

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Awesome, thanks for the write up. I know next to nothing about M1s, but owning one has been on my bucket list for a long time. I've a vet and an LEO, so I already qualify to purchase through the CMP. I wish the North store was a bit closer to the Ohio/Indiana border, I'd probably just go browse around there.

 

[red_zr24x4]

Your LTCH will cover the marksmanship.
Grand collectors covers the affiliated club, which you can join right at CMP.
If you can, go to Port Clinton to the North Store and pick you one out. Its worth the time just to see the store.

 

[Sgt7330]

I just received 2 service grade Garands from CMP on Oct 22. Both great barrels, good metal, very pleased. I have only fired surplus HXP M2 ball and Lake City M2 ball surplus in my rifles. The CMP surplus HXP M2 ammo has been the best deal, IMO. Right now I think it is loose ammo, but they will start selling the ammo cans with it on en blocs again sometime.
I do not own a Special Grade in .308, but I do own one in 30-06. Beautiful rifle. Here it is :

 

[huntall50]

'Special Grade in .308'. I want a Garand and would prefer .308 but don't want to pay $1000 for re-barreling. Where do I find it?

 

[LarryC]

'Special Grade in .308'. I want a Garand and would prefer .308 but don't want to pay $1000 for re-barreling. Where do I find it?

CMP RM1308SPECIAL at Rifle Sales - M1 Garand
$995 S&H $24.95 per rifle

 

[Atlas]

The greet surplus stuff works very well. As a military rifle collector who, while not a garand fan, has spoken to other old iron guys who have dedicated their lives to them, I would shoot the greek stuff myself without any hesitation.