The Black Talon myth is alive and well!

[Wolfe28]

I still remember when they were introduced the only people complaining were emergency room doctors who claimed that the talons would puncture their gloves and expose them to body fluids. (and they were correct).

What they are not telling you is that it is very easy to slash through the gloves used in the ER. It happens all the time with bone fragments, the projectile doesn't significantly increase the risk of breaking isolation procedures.

Oh well, just more proof that you can't scream reason.

 

[upchurch67]

There is a hint of truth to this myth. I can't find the statute now, but in the mid 90's when there was much being made about the deadliness of the Black Talon, many states, Kentucky being one of them, made it an additional criminal charge if a person committed a violent crime and they were in possession of "flanged ammunition". I remember that the Kentucky statute specifically named Black Talons at the time.

 

[Chefcook]

I have been looking for some Winchester Ranger T but havent been able to find any locally. I might have to do a group buy or something to save on shipping costs online...

 

[IndyBeerman]

There is a hint of truth to this myth. I can't find the statute now, but in the mid 90's when there was much being made about the deadliness of the Black Talon, many states, Kentucky being one of them, made it an additional criminal charge if a person committed a violent crime and they were in possession of "flanged ammunition". I remember that the Kentucky statute specifically named Black Talons at the time.

 

[Mackey]

I really didn't know that these cartridges were "collectable". I liked them back in the day because of all the press (bought them off the shelf at a gun shop in Jeffersonville IN). I have a box of 20 in .357 Magnum. Anybody know where I can get me some good mula for these?

 

[EvilBlackGun]

"If it bleeds, it leads"

I think it was Diane Sawyer who hosted the killer head-shot to the Talons.
Showed an expanding bullet swirling through the vitals of a cartoon-dummy,
never losing any momentum on its way to impart gory death. They properly analyzed the forming of the double-swaged "petals" of the Talon. The inside of the petals were made "pointy" and when it expanded it did show potential of increased damage, but my experiments never could get it to spin all around inside the body cavity.

 

[upchurch67]

Found the KY statute. I coulda swore the original verbage specifically called out Black Talons.

527.080 Using restricted ammunition during the commission of a crime -- Exception.
(1) A person is guilty of using restricted ammunition during the commission of a crime when he commits any felony offense under this code and is armed at the time of the commission of the offense or in the immediate flight therefrom with a firearm loaded, as defined in KRS 237.060, with armor-piercing ammunition as defined in KRS 237.060 or flanged ammunition as defined in KRS 237.060.

237.060 Definitions for KRS 237.060 to 237.090 and certain other sections.
The following definitions apply in KRS 237.060 to 237.090 and KRS 197.170, 218A.992, 244.125, 244.990, and 514.110, unless the context otherwise requires:

Blah Blah Blah

(8) "Flanged ammunition" means ammunition with a soft lead core and having sharp flanges which are designed to expand on impact.

 

[IndianaGTI]

Love it. After the controversy, Winchester rebranded them as Ranger SXTs and changed the bullet color from black to copper, presumably to be less scary. According to Winchester, SXT stands for "Supreme eXpansion Technology", but many call it "Same eXact Thing".
?

Actually, they did not change the color of the bullet from Black to Copper. They got rid of the teflon coating. Some people suggested the teflon coating was to make the bullet go faster or somehow magically puncture bullet proof vests. Most states enacted a statute like indiana's in response to the scare.

If you take a look at the statute, the Black Talon may actually still qualify as an "Armor-piercing handgun ammunition" since it

1. can be fired in a handgun
2. a. has a lead core which is a type of metal
b. has a teflon coating which is DuPont's trade name for a plastic

Do you still want to say it is just a myth? Could a prosecutor convince a jury that a black talon bullet can be fired in a handgun, has a metal core and a plastic coating?


IC 35-47-5-11
"Armor-piercing handgun ammunition" defined; related offenses
Sec. 11. (a) As used in this section, "armor-piercing handgun ammunition" means a cartridge that:
(1) can be fired in a handgun; and
(2) will, upon firing, expel a projectile that has a metal core and an outer coating of plastic.
(b) A person who knowingly or intentionally:
(1) manufactures;
(2) possesses;
(3) transfers possession of; or
(4) offers to transfer possession of;
armor-piercing handgun ammunition commits a Class C felony.
(c) This section does not apply to nylon coated ammunition, plastic shot capsules, or ammunition designed to be used in rifles or shotguns.
(d) This section does not apply to a law enforcement officer who is acting in the course of the officer's official duties or to a person who manufactures or imports for sale or sells armor-piercing handgun ammunition to a law enforcement agency.
As added by P.L.332-1983, SEC.1. Amended by P.L.327-1987, SEC.2.

 

[Kedric]

I have been looking for some Winchester Ranger T but havent been able to find any locally. I might have to do a group buy or something to save on shipping costs online...

last time I bought a few boxes I had to go online too, none of the local shops carried them.

 

[gglass]

Actually, they did not change the color of the bullet from Black to Copper. They got rid of the teflon coating. Some people suggested the teflon coating was to make the bullet go faster or somehow magically puncture bullet proof vests. Most states enacted a statute like indiana's in response to the scare.

If you take a look at the statute, the Black Talon may actually still qualify as an "Armor-piercing handgun ammunition" since it

1. can be fired in a handgun
2. a. has a lead core which is a type of metal
b. has a teflon coating which is DuPont's trade name for a plastic

Do you still want to say it is just a myth? Could a prosecutor convince a jury that a black talon bullet can be fired in a handgun, has a metal core and a plastic coating?


IC 35-47-5-11
"Armor-piercing handgun ammunition" defined; related offenses
Sec. 11. (a) As used in this section, "armor-piercing handgun ammunition" means a cartridge that:
(1) can be fired in a handgun; and
(2) will, upon firing, expel a projectile that has a metal core and an outer coating of plastic.
(b) A person who knowingly or intentionally:
(1) manufactures;
(2) possesses;
(3) transfers possession of; or
(4) offers to transfer possession of;
armor-piercing handgun ammunition commits a Class C felony.
(c) This section does not apply to nylon coated ammunition, plastic shot capsules, or ammunition designed to be used in rifles or shotguns.
(d) This section does not apply to a law enforcement officer who is acting in the course of the officer's official duties or to a person who manufactures or imports for sale or sells armor-piercing handgun ammunition to a law enforcement agency.
As added by P.L.332-1983, SEC.1. Amended by P.L.327-1987, SEC.2.

Whew! I am surely glad that I got rid of my Federal .38 Special +P Nyclad bullets (nylon=plastic) when I sold my LCR. To think... I could have been a felon, and Midwest Gun Exchange could have gone down too for selling me those cop killers!!!

 

[upchurch67]

Actually, they did not change the color of the bullet from Black to Copper. They got rid of the teflon coating. Some people suggested the teflon coating was to make the bullet go faster or somehow magically puncture bullet proof vests. Most states enacted a statute like indiana's in response to the scare.

If you take a look at the statute, the Black Talon may actually still qualify as an "Armor-piercing handgun ammunition" since it

1. can be fired in a handgun
2. a. has a lead core which is a type of metal
b. has a teflon coating which is DuPont's trade name for a plastic

Do you still want to say it is just a myth? Could a prosecutor convince a jury that a black talon bullet can be fired in a handgun, has a metal core and a plastic coating?

Black Talons are NOT coated with Teflon or any other type of plastic. They are a copper jacketed hollowpoint with a Lubalox coating which is a type of chemical treatment to the copper.

So,
1. Yes, I would say it is a myth.
2. No, a prosecutor could not convince a jury that a black talon bullet is coated with plastic. Mostly because they are not.

 

[upchurch67]

c) This section does not apply to nylon coated ammunition, plastic shot capsules, or ammunition designed to be used in rifles or shotguns.

The IC specifically exempts nylon coated ammunition.

 

[DarkRose]

Got the ammo, no Black Talons...
Almost 2 boxes of UMC FMJ
1 almost full box of Precision Cartridge reloads (Hobart, Indiana based) lead SWC
1 box of Federal NyClad, which could be what he thought were Black Talons... The blue bullets are interesting...

Talked to him tonight and he says those aren't what he remembers her having taken away, so he may have more ammo, if he finds any, I get it too!

 

[ultraspec]

They still use forceps in surgery don't they?
Why are they digging around somebody's innards with their dick beaters?







Agreed but



ALSO: I have a box of .45 BT................ WTT: for nice vintage Corvette Stingray or 200 acres wooded land.

I had no idea that Black Talon ammo only killed cops. From what you're saying, these rounds won't work on burglars?
I need to switch mine out for some "Bad Guy Killers" or something. All this time I've been carrying, and been totally vulnerable. I might have had to shoot at some psycho, just to have the bullets change direction in mid-air and target the nearest donut shop.

I like donuts! Thank you for setting me straight.

Reps to both of you for making me laugh my a$$ off

 

[ultraspec]

Got the ammo, no Black Talons...
Almost 2 boxes of UMC FMJ
1 almost full box of Precision Cartridge reloads (Hobart, Indiana based) lead SWC
1 box of Federal NyClad, which could be what he thought were Black Talons... The blue bullets are interesting...

Talked to him tonight and he says those aren't what he remembers her having taken away, so he may have more ammo, if he finds any, I get it too!

Nyclads are a helluva round and have brought down more bad guys probably than any round ouside the 230gr .45 used for the military.

 

[IndianaGTI]

Whew! I am surely glad that I got rid of my Federal .38 Special +P Nyclad bullets (nylon=plastic) when I sold my LCR. To think... I could have been a felon, and Midwest Gun Exchange could have gone down too for selling me those cop killers!!!

Nylon is specifically excepted.

(c) This section does not apply to nylon coated ammunition, plastic shot capsules, or ammunition designed to be used in rifles or shotguns.

Black Talons are NOT coated with Teflon or any other type of plastic. They are a copper jacketed hollowpoint with a Lubalox coating which is a type of chemical treatment to the copper.

So,
1. Yes, I would say it is a myth.
2. No, a prosecutor could not convince a jury that a black talon bullet is coated with plastic. Mostly because they are not.

Oh, good info! Thanks. I completely mistakenly believed that they had a Teflon coating. Apparently, that was widely reported when the ammunition came out and just stuck in my head. I looked it up based on your information and the articles I found said that it was widely reported to have a teflon coating but actually has a Lubalox coating. Thank for clarifying my mistaken belief of the last 20 years.

 

[38special]

According to the wikipedia article, they never made black talons in .38 special.

 

[DarkRose]

According to the wikipedia article, they never made black talons in .38 special.

Interesting... I've got a feeling he was led astray, heard from some other people his wife is a little "excitable", so he might not have gotten the whole/correct/accurate story either.
He's not a shooter, so he's not sure EXCACTLY what they were, just the "illegal cop killer" bullets...

 

[gglass]

Nylon is specifically excepted.

(c) This section does not apply to nylon coated ammunition, plastic shot capsules, or ammunition designed to be used in rifles or shotguns.



Oh, good info! Thanks. I completely mistakenly believed that they had a Teflon coating. Apparently, that was widely reported when the ammunition came out and just stuck in my head. I looked it up based on your information and the articles I found said that it was widely reported to have a teflon coating but actually has a Lubalox coating. Thank for clarifying my mistaken belief of the last 20 years.

I should have used PURPLE. I was sarcastically throwing the OTHER so-called plastic coated bullet into the fray.

 

[Gabriel]

I still have about a mags worth.

I have a mags worth of .45 someone gave me. I should put them up for sale.