The Effect of "Abortion Rights" on the Political Landscape

[AndreusMaximus]

Yes, I oppose abortion because of the sanctity of life in my opinion. Man’s laws may be different than that. The Indiana code is man’s, not Gods, and therefore Caesars. It is similar to those that say how can a Christian vote for a presidential candidate that has done immoral things, we are not electing god, we are electing Caesar. Not saying our beliefs should not inform our decisions, but laws on topics like abortion are.

Thank you for trying again to explain it to me, and my apologies for misinterpreting you earlier.

So it sounds more like you're saying that even though you believe that abortion is murder, you are still willing to vote for a politician who doesn't align with your belief on abortion, because a vote, being a political action and not a religious one, doesn't need to be held to as perfect of a standard? Is that closer to what your saying?

Is it in the Bible that Christians should make rules governing how other live and what they do?

Well, no, which is why, in my mind, I always separate religious issues from moral ones.

Religious issues are things like going to Church on Sundays, receive Baptism, worship God alone. Extremely important things, but not things that should be imposed on other through force of law.

Moral issues are things that human beings should be held to, regardless of religion. Things like don't steal, don't murder, don't lie, don't cheat on your wife. These are tings that "belong to Caesar", if you will. Even though they are generally also forbidden for religious reasons, there are purely natural, human reasons that they should be viewed as wrong, so even an atheist, if they have a properly calibrated moral compass, will see all those things as wrong. Some of those things should always be illegal (like theft/murder) some should only be illegal depending on the gravity of the circumstances (like lying) and some shouldn't be illegal at all, just frowned on by society (like cheating on your wife.)

Then, there's a further gradation among immoral actions that I believe should be illegal: those things I am willing to compromise on, vs. those I am not. For instance, I am somewhat willing to compromise on theft. I view the current exorbitant taxes imposed on middle and upper class people, for the purpose of wealth redistribution, as a form of theft. However, in a hypothetical scenario, I might be willing to vote for a politician who supported such things, if there were other, more important issues at stake.

But when you get to an issue like murder, I'm just not willing to compromise at all. And my reasoning for that seems to (maybe?) be the opposite of what you're saying. I don't refuse to compromise on murder because there is a religious mandate against it. If that were the case, I would also demand to see laws against idolatry, fornication, etc, because those also have religious mandates against them. But in the case of murder, I don't even have to, in my own mind, refer to my religious beliefs, because on a purely human level I see the purposeful taking of an innocent human life as completely abhorrent to a moral person. And I couldn't bring myself to associate with it in the remotest way, even by voting for a politician who wants to legalize more murder.

P.S. I’m just thinking this through out loud…

Me too; I'm not sure if my rambling above made sense or not...

 

[Expat]

Margaret Sanger was born a Catholic.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

We have had legal abortions for what? Two new generations.
nearly none of those generations have known the inside of a church.
so to me, it feels like a lost cause.

There is no political solution to a spiritual war.

 

[Ingomike]

Thank you for trying again to explain it to me, and my apologies for misinterpreting you earlier.

So it sounds more like you're saying that even though you believe that abortion is murder, you are still willing to vote for a politician who doesn't align with your belief on abortion, because a vote, being a political action and not a religious one, doesn't need to be held to as perfect of a standard? Is that closer to what your saying?

Well, no, which is why, in my mind, I always separate religious issues from moral ones.

Religious issues are things like going to Church on Sundays, receive Baptism, worship God alone. Extremely important things, but not things that should be imposed on other through force of law.

Moral issues are things that human beings should be held to, regardless of religion. Things like don't steal, don't murder, don't lie, don't cheat on your wife. These are tings that "belong to Caesar", if you will. Even though they are generally also forbidden for religious reasons, there are purely natural, human reasons that they should be viewed as wrong, so even an atheist, if they have a properly calibrated moral compass, will see all those things as wrong. Some of those things should always be illegal (like theft/murder) some should only be illegal depending on the gravity of the circumstances (like lying) and some shouldn't be illegal at all, just frowned on by society (like cheating on your wife.)

Then, there's a further gradation among immoral actions that I believe should be illegal: those things I am willing to compromise on, vs. those I am not. For instance, I am somewhat willing to compromise on theft. I view the current exorbitant taxes imposed on middle and upper class people, for the purpose of wealth redistribution, as a form of theft. However, in a hypothetical scenario, I might be willing to vote for a politician who supported such things, if there were other, more important issues at stake.

But when you get to an issue like murder, I'm just not willing to compromise at all. And my reasoning for that seems to (maybe?) be the opposite of what you're saying. I don't refuse to compromise on murder because there is a religious mandate against it. If that were the case, I would also demand to see laws against idolatry, fornication, etc, because those also have religious mandates against them. But in the case of murder, I don't even have to, in my own mind, refer to my religious beliefs, because on a purely human level I see the purposeful taking of an innocent human life as completely abhorrent to a moral person. And I couldn't bring myself to associate with it in the remotest way, even by voting for a politician who wants to legalize more murder.

Me too; I'm not sure if my rambling above made sense or not...

I believe we are on the same track…

 

[Ingomike]

Me too; I'm not sure if my rambling above made sense or not...

I am trying to figure out if we as Christians are focused on one issue to the detriment of a host of issues that are also very important to our faith. The left is coming after our freedoms to speak, worship, and teach others to believe in Christ etc. What I am wrestling with; is the single focus on abortion causing us to lose the very tools and ability to battle abortion?

 

[Kdf101]

I am trying to figure out if we as Christians are focused on one issue to the detriment of a host of issues that are also very important to our faith. The left is coming after our freedoms to speak, worship, and teach others to believe in Christ etc. What I am wrestling with; is the single focus on abortion causing us to lose the very tools and ability to battle abortion?

Yes, I think this is the case.

 

[BE Mike]

Like it or not morals are tied to religious beliefs. If the Ten Commandments hadn't come about, what would our laws look like today?

 

[AndreusMaximus]

I am trying to figure out if we as Christians are focused on one issue to the detriment of a host of issues that are also very important to our faith. The left is coming after our freedoms to speak, worship, and teach others to believe in Christ etc. What I am wrestling with; is the single focus on abortion causing us to lose the very tools and ability to battle abortion?

I don't know that I see the issue you're seeing.

Maybe it's just my circle of friends, but I don't really see a ton of Christians out there who focus exclusively on abortion, and don't care about anything else. In my own experience, the ones who are most passionate about ending abortion are the same ones who put the most energy into things like researching political candidates on multiple issues, writing to their representatives on freedom of speech and religion issues, encouraging their friends to turn out and vote (just this past Tuesday I went to vote even though there was literally only one question on the ballot, about property taxes, thanks to a very pro-life family member who reminded me that we had an election, which I had totally missed, shame on me) and also the ones who donate the most of their own time and money towards helping the poor and needy.

I know I hear a lot of complaints about those hard-core pro-lifers who don't think about anything other than "abortion bad", and don't care about anyone after they've been born, but I've just never met anyone like that.

So, I guess, in addition to the fact that I see abortion as a fundamental moral question that I can't compromise on, I also just don't see the dichotomy. I can't think of any case where one would have to turn a blind eye or compromise on abortion in order to focus more on other things important to a Christian.

Or as I'm thinking about this more, maybe I do see what you mean. Are you referring to people who just go blindly vote for whoever is supposed to be the most pro-life candidate, without bothering to check if they're sincere or not? We've definitely got an issue with politicians who garner votes by talking the talk about banning abortion, but then get into office and do nothing but act like leftists, except for maybe a few votes just for show on pro-life bills that never had a chance or wouldn't change anything anyways. I think our own Todd Young is something of an example of that.

Then, I think Trump is a great example of the other side of the coin. He talks an awfully "iffy" sounding talk on the abortion issue, but then ended up doing more for the pro-life movement that any other president in my lifetime.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

This has to be the stupidest thing ever posted to INGO.

Quoted for posterity.

I think he must be out in Ohio enjoying some of that newly legalized stuff.

(P.S., Not abortion. The other thing they just legalized. Just in case I needed to clarify. )

 

[LeftyGunner]

I am trying to figure out if we as Christians are focused on one issue to the detriment of a host of issues that are also very important to our faith. The left is coming after our freedoms to speak, worship, and teach others to believe in Christ etc. What I am wrestling with; is the single focus on abortion causing us to lose the very tools and ability to battle abortion?

I think it really is.

From an outsider, I don’t understand the Christian push to criminalize abortion. If Christians don’t agree with abortion they should make an example of themselves by not having abortions…but Christians make up the majority of abortion service consumers in the US year after year.

If Christians could just stop themselves from getting abortions the annual number performed would drop by over half instantly.

The rest of us see this, and it makes us doubt the sincerity of the Christian position…if you really loathe abortion so much, why do you have so many abortions?

Conservatives claim to value individual liberty, personal responsibility, and hands-off government, but the Republican stance on abortion runs counter to all of those values.

Practically speaking, you cannot expect others to adhere to a code of conduct you refuse to obey yourself.

Abortion makes Christians look like hypocrites, and keeping the issue centered works against them, in my humble opinion.

 

[Kdf101]

I don't know that I see the issue you're seeing.

Maybe it's just my circle of friends, but I don't really see a ton of Christians out there who focus exclusively on abortion, and don't care about anything else. In my own experience, the ones who are most passionate about ending abortion are the same ones who put the most energy into things like researching political candidates on multiple issues, writing to their representatives on freedom of speech and religion issues, encouraging their friends to turn out and vote (just this past Tuesday I went to vote even though there was literally only one question on the ballot, about property taxes, thanks to a very pro-life family member who reminded me that we had an election, which I had totally missed, shame on me) and also the ones who donate the most of their own time and money towards helping the poor and needy.

I know I hear a lot of complaints about those hard-core pro-lifers who don't think about anything other than "abortion bad", and don't care about anyone after they've been born, but I've just never met anyone like that.

So, I guess, in addition to the fact that I see abortion as a fundamental moral question that I can't compromise on, I also just don't see the dichotomy. I can't think of any case where one would have to turn a blind eye or compromise on abortion in order to focus more on other things important to a Christian.

Or as I'm thinking about this more, maybe I do see what you mean. Are you referring to people who just go blindly vote for whoever is supposed to be the most pro-life candidate, without bothering to check if they're sincere or not? We've definitely got an issue with politicians who garner votes by talking the talk about banning abortion, but then get into office and do nothing but act like leftists, except for maybe a few votes just for show on pro-life bills that never had a chance or wouldn't change anything anyways. I think our own Todd Young is something of an example of that.

Then, I think Trump is a great example of the other side of the coin. He talks an awfully "iffy" sounding talk on the abortion issue, but then ended up doing more for the pro-life movement that any other president in my lifetime.

I think what he meant, at least what I think he meant, was that when Christian’s support an anti abortion candidate or policy above all else, they may do long term harm to their cause. This policy can have the effect of alienating a lot of people who you may agree with on all other issues and by putting hard core anti abortion candidates on the ballot, you may be in fact driving a lot of people to vote for the other side, even if they don’t agree with most of the issues they stand for. I dont know how big this group is that would do that, but I think it is a factor in several of the last few election cycles. If I was the chairman of the RNC, I would push to avoid the issue altogether in coming elections.

Anyway, that is what I got out of the post. As usual, I am wrong a lot, so take it for what you paid to read it .

 

[BugI02]

I think it really is.

From an outsider, I don’t understand the Christian push to criminalize abortion. If Christians don’t agree with abortion they should make an example of themselves by not having abortions…but Christians make up the majority of abortion service consumers in the US year after year.

If Christians could just stop themselves from getting abortions the annual number performed would drop by over half instantly.

The rest of us see this, and it makes us doubt the sincerity of the Christian position…if you really loathe abortion so much, why do you have so many abortions?

Conservatives claim to value individual liberty, personal responsibility, and hands-off government, but the Republican stance on abortion runs counter to all of those values.

Practically speaking, you cannot expect others to adhere to a code of conduct you refuse to obey yourself.

Abortion makes Christians look like hypocrites, and keeping the issue centered works against them, in my humble opinion.

I suspect it is entirely possible you will live to regret the devaluation of human life, quite possibly when you are older and using up resources that your fellow travelers conclude could best be applied elsewhere

 

[AndreusMaximus]

I think it really is.

From an outsider, I don’t understand the Christian push to criminalize abortion. If Christians don’t agree with abortion they should make an example of themselves by not having abortions…but Christians make up the majority of abortion service consumers in the US year after year.

If Christians could just stop themselves from getting abortions the annual number performed would drop by over half instantly.

The rest of us see this, and it makes us doubt the sincerity of the Christian position…if you really loathe abortion so much, why do you have so many abortions?

Conservatives claim to value individual liberty, personal responsibility, and hands-off government, but the Republican stance on abortion runs counter to all of those values.

Practically speaking, you cannot expect others to adhere to a code of conduct you refuse to obey yourself.

Abortion makes Christians look like hypocrites, and keeping the issue centered works against them, in my humble opinion.

Well, as much as it pains me to say it, the label "Christian" doesn't mean much these days.

Christians in America do not have a uniform system of beliefs. The only thing they have in common in that they, at least on paper, profess to follow Jesus Christ. There are a few other beliefs that the majority of Christian sects will also hold to, like some form of worship on Sundays, or adultery is bad.

However, on just about any hot-button social issue, such as abortion, Christians will vary just as wildly in their beliefs as any other cross-section of society.

So it's not really that "Christians" as a whole are more hypocritical than the rest of society, it's just that the majority of "Christians" no longer hold to the same beliefs that have been traditionally regarded as "the Christian position."

 

[miguel]

It's all ******** until photos and video of this "medical procedure" can be publically shown on TV, YouTube, newspapers, wherever.

Until then, "pro life" people aren't even in the fight, like it or not. It is so typical of the MSM putting a ton of slag on the scales against one gram of gold to make things appear like a nice, clean, neutral conversation that the "closed minded" and "religious zealot" proles object to from their ignorance.

If, to the "pro choice" people, it's only a feuts and not a baby, then let's see it, man. I can watch a heart surgery or conjoined twins being separated on YT. If it's a surgery like any other, then laissez les bons temps rouler!

Any discussion or consideration of an issue without all the facts being out in the open is nothing more than a scam, at best.

Also spach Miguel...

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

It's all ******** until photos and video of this "medical procedure" can be publically shown on TV, YouTube, newspapers, wherever.

Until then, "pro life" people aren't even in the fight, like it or not. It is so typical of the MSM putting a ton of slag on the scales against one gram of gold to make things appear like a nice, clean, neutral conversation that the "closed minded" and "religious zealot" proles object to from their ignorance.

If, to the "pro choice" people, it's only a feuts and not a baby, then let's see it, man. I can watch a heart surgery or conjoined twins being separated on YT. If it's a surgery like any other, then laissez les bons temps rouler!

Any discussion or consideration of an issue without all the facts being out in the open is nothing more than a scam, at best.

Also spach Miguel...

There’s a reason those freezing puppy videos/commercials are shown on TV by those animal rights people. When our parents saw black people in the south mauled by dogs and beaten by cops with their own eyes on TV that’s when real change in civil rights began. Abortion lovers know this and you’ll never see a child ripped apart in his/her mother’s womb because they know what would happen. I’ve often said if we could hear an aborted baby‘s screams, surely our hearts would be transformed.

 

[ZurokSlayer7X9]

I think it really is.

From an outsider, I don’t understand the Christian push to criminalize abortion. If Christians don’t agree with abortion they should make an example of themselves by not having abortions…but Christians make up the majority of abortion service consumers in the US year after year.

If Christians could just stop themselves from getting abortions the annual number performed would drop by over half instantly.

The rest of us see this, and it makes us doubt the sincerity of the Christian position…if you really loathe abortion so much, why do you have so many abortions?

Conservatives claim to value individual liberty, personal responsibility, and hands-off government, but the Republican stance on abortion runs counter to all of those values.

Practically speaking, you cannot expect others to adhere to a code of conduct you refuse to obey yourself.

Abortion makes Christians look like hypocrites, and keeping the issue centered works against them, in my humble opinion.

The first thing is there is a difference between being a "Christian" and actually walking with Christ. There are many who adopt that name, but do not practice what He taught (ie. Claimants to the Faith). This is similar to those saying they fully support the 2nd Amendment, but work to ban scary black rifles. Every group has their hypocrites, and Christianity is no exception. However, you are right, there is a lot of hypocrisy and evil in the church, and I say this as a follower of Jesus.

The concept of abortion runs contrary to Christian beliefs due to belief that human dignity transcends the mortal realm and exists before birth and beyond death. Infants are seen as the most innocent, and that from a moral point of view, have this innocence and dignity at the moment of conception. This is backed by several verses in both the Old and New Testament. It is also a belief that the act of relations is an act reserved for the bonding and enjoyment of married couples that also acts as the designated method for reproduction, further uniting the couple and their offspring. Fruitless merrymaking is seen as a vice or desire of the flesh.

We can agree or disagree on the above paragraph, but that is some of the Christian Perspective. Personally I am more in the "Only If Necessary Evil" camp, where as it being allowed as a necessary medical procedure, or in the event of rape or some other bad situation. I believe it is a morally wrong procedure that sometimes may have to be performed. People debate if a "clump of cells" has human dignity or not, but the fact remains that without outside interference (and also if nothing goes wrong), that "clump of cells" will grow into a person that has their own ambitions and goals. Imagine your children (or best friend if you don't have any children like me) just not there because they were aborted. That is another reason some are vehemently against abortion. With that being said, I also believe the "zero tolerance" policy enacted by some republicans can also do harm in these very rare nuanced grey-area situations.

 

[Ingomike]

I think it really is.

From an outsider, I don’t understand the Christian push to criminalize abortion. If Christians don’t agree with abortion they should make an example of themselves by not having abortions…but Christians make up the majority of abortion service consumers in the US year after year.

If Christians could just stop themselves from getting abortions the annual number performed would drop by over half instantly.

The rest of us see this, and it makes us doubt the sincerity of the Christian position…if you really loathe abortion so much, why do you have so many abortions?

This is a favorite past time of the left. The people who have no standards they aspire to calling those that do aspire to standards hypocrites when they fail. Then there are degrees of faith, some claim faith in Christ but never do anything Christ said to do, but the left like to paint with a broad brush. 70% of society identifies as christian so why wouldn’t that be a big part of the total? Likely if it was not so easy to get an abortion fewer would.

Conservatives claim to value individual liberty, personal responsibility, and hands-off government, but the Republican stance on abortion runs counter to all of those values.

Do you believe murder is wrong? No tricks here, is murder wrong? Not asking you to agree abortion is murder, but if one does believe it is murder there is no conflict with liberty. Only if one believes it is women’s healthcare would one be conflict with liberty. Do you believe the laws pertaining to murder are in conflict with “individual liberty, personal responsibility, and hands-off government”?

keeping the issue centered works against them, in my humble opinion.

Yep, protecting innocent life is not popular in the most selfish society in my lifetime…

 

[Tombs]

Conservatives claim to value individual liberty, personal responsibility, and hands-off government, but the Republican stance on abortion runs counter to all of those values.

This is a false equivalence.

You're starting from the standpoint that an infant is not a human being with rights. If you accept that it is an infant with rights, it's entirely consistent with conservative beliefs.

If you replaced "fetus" with "slave" you would start to see where this all circles back.

 

[miguel]

There’s a reason those freezing puppy videos/commercials are shown on TV by those animal rights people. When our parents saw black people in the south mauled by dogs and beaten by cops with their own eyes on TV that’s when real change in civil rights began. Abortion lovers know this and you’ll never see a child ripped apart in his/her mother’s womb because they know what would happen. I’ve often said if we could hear an aborted baby‘s screams, surely our hearts would be transformed.

Further, the "pro life" crowd needs to not use the "pro choice" crowd's language.

One can candidly say, in a non-dramatic way, "We are against killing human life in the womb. Why do you support killing human life in the womb?" rather than "We're against abortion. Why are you for it?"

See Josef Piper's, Abuse of Language, Abuse of Power. Never let anyone control your vocabulary. Once you start using their words rather than good, old fashioned words that have meant what the words have meant for some time, you prepare yourself to lose.

 

[HoosierLife]

The pundits have blamed the red state losses during this recent election on their anti-abortion stance. If that is true, it looks like the majority of voters want abortion legal in all states. I'm not sure that this is the biggest issue that is on voters' minds, but I've been wrong before. Whatever, it looks like, as usual, Republicans don't know how to reach out to voters and get elected.

Here’s what we know. Folks will vote for Abortion rights, trans rights, and drug rights at the expense of any other issue.