The Open Carry Argument

[2A_Tom]

As an OC Educator I face less opposition now than I did when I started several years ago. Most every encounter I have now is positive. Police in my area seem to be much better informed and never stop or even look twice at me. The stores I frequent never seem to notice.

Several years ago when I started OCing in NWI I was accosted by the police and security guards frequently. Being prepared with the knowledge of IC and the willingness to educate (usually nicely sometime less nicely) has "in my opinion" made a big difference.

Some don't want to be bothered with explaining to others the ins and outs of the law, that is their privilege. I for one decided to be an educator.

 

[chipbennett]

It is your right to open carry. You are not a criminal or a bad person for open carry. However, we live in a world where many people are legitimately afraid of guns. With all of the flurry of negative propaganda against gun owners, I can think of few great reasons to open carry. In the end, it becomes a matter of consideration. Why cause angst for a complete stranger when there is no need? Your freedom is not based on the anxiety levels of those around us. You have the right to open carry. In the end, I choose to not open carry because where I live and frequent it would be inconsiderate of the ignorant folks that would be afraid simply because I have a gun.

I generally carry concealed, but fully support the right of those who choose to carry openly. I refuse to allow my lawful, moral exercise of my rights be constrained due to the possibility that I may offend the delicate sensibilities of the perpetually aggrieved and the irrationally fearful.

People are not legitimately afraid of guns; such fear is utterly irrational. All of the flurry of negative propaganda against gun owners is the greatest reason to open carry: to dispel the falsehoods of such propaganda by demonstrating the overwhelmingly law-abiding, peaceable nature of gun owners.

 

[gamecrimez]

I open carry & have for the last 5 months since I received my LTCH. From what I noticed people usually don't even notice, those that do so far have been friendly & curious. I haven't had any negative encounters since I started OCing. I get a lot of other carriers talk to me both open & concealed none negative toward me or try to debate my reasons for not concealing. I have yet to encounter the police yet which is 1 fear I have as I never know how they will react. I did go to a gas station once & there was a cop there that I believe noticed my gun but didn't say anything, he opened the door for me & I said thanks. I think it should be up to the person carrying & not for others to decide. It is our right & I could care less how others feel, to me it makes me feel safer as the chances of someone messing with me are more slim than a person that is unarmed or appears to be unarmed.

 

[2A_Tom]

A gun is not a talisman, get training.

 

[INgunowner]

Training cannot correct a deficient mindset.
Choice precedes Action.

 

[INgunowner]

Stole this from member 88E30M50' sig
Basically this.
When I carry a gun, I don’t do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I’m looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don’t carry it because I’m afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn’t limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation … and that’s why carrying a gun is a civilized act. -Marko Kloos -why the gun is civilization- 3/23/07

 

[wtburnette]

Stole this from member 88E30M50' sig
Basically this.
When I carry a gun, I don’t do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I’m looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don’t carry it because I’m afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn’t limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation … and that’s why carrying a gun is a civilized act. -Marko Kloos -why the gun is civilization- 3/23/07

That's a great quote and Marko is also a pretty good author

 

[ljk]

I don't OC, but I'm not against other people doing so as their free will and where it's legal.

Actions have consequences, pick yours accordingly.

 

[protias]

Training cannot correct a deficient mindset.
Choice precedes Action.

I disagree. Bad training is worse than no training.

Bad Training Worse Than No Training - AllOutdoor.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bm3GgDxPOM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX6GKntzJbs

Need I go on?

 

[One Shot One Kill]

A gun is not a talisman, get training.

So people without training shouldn't carry their guns? I've shot my carry guns enough to be comfortable with my weapon at defensive ranges. I've had no formal training, but I try to hit the range when I can.. Not as often as I would like either..
Income has started to pick up and me and my wife have agreed to invest into classes and more ammo/range time; I agree it's important, but is it imperative to get training for carry for self defense? Some things others consider a necessity are a luxury when you have to wonder if you have enough for food and bills... Im not looking for an argument, I'm genuinely curious about this and I agree training is definitely high on the list of gun must-haves like good holsters/ammo.

More on topic... I open carry my G19 occasionally purely because of comfort. Sometimes I need a break from IWB, which can become uncomfortable because of my bony hips, despite using decent holsters. I don't mind educating people who are curious, but I wont argue with individuals. Had one guy before ask me if I was a cop. I politely replied no, that I was a licensed citizen. He asked if this was the wild west... I just said "you watch the news?" and went back to doing my laundry. I'm not going to engage people who talk in accusatory tones..

 

[ATM]

...I don't mind educating people who are curious, but I wont argue with individuals...

Might these individuals have sammiches?

If not, I'm still willing to provide some pro bono arguing for special causes.

 

[Lelliott8]

Might these individuals have sammiches?

If not, I'm still willing to provide some pro bono arguing for special causes.

They specifically do not have sammiches for this very reason.

 

[2A_Tom]

Some would classify some of my early encounters with uneducated Police Officers as argumentative.

I would say (since I always walked away) they were educational.

However had I been arrested I could have used the extra cash and would have willingly (if not happily) have fought for your rights.

 

[rhino]

I disagree. Bad training is worse than no training.

Bad Training Worse Than No Training - AllOutdoor.com

The article in your link suggest that NRA instructor certification is necessary (and implies sufficient) qualification for teaching self-defense firearms classes.

I disagree with that assertion. NRA certification in and of itself is an indication that an individual is qualified to teach the NRA courses for which they are certified. . . nothing more and nothing less. There are many very, very good defensive firearms teachers who are not and never will be NRA certified. There are also many, many NRA-certified instructor who are definitely not competent to teach self-defense with handguns.

However, your assertion that bad training is worse than no training is often true (and dovetails nicely with what I just wrote).

 

[protias]

The article in your link suggest that NRA instructor certification is necessary (and implies sufficient) qualification for teaching self-defense firearms classes.

I disagree with that assertion. NRA certification in and of itself is an indication that an individual is qualified to teach the NRA courses for which they are certified. . . nothing more and nothing less. There are many very, very good defensive firearms teachers who are not and never will be NRA certified. There are also many, many NRA-certified instructor who are definitely not competent to teach self-defense with handguns.

However, your assertion that bad training is worse than no training is often true (and dovetails nicely with what I just wrote).

Unless you created that INgunowner account, I'm not sure what post you are referring to. :confused:

 

[rhino]

Unless you created that INgunowner account, I'm not sure what post you are referring to. :confused:

In your message #3109, you included this link: Bad Training Worse Than No Training - AllOutdoor.com

At that link, the article includes this passage:

What credentials or qualifications should you look for? First ask or check to determine if the course instructors are officially certified NRA instructors. Ask to see the certificates. This means those trainers have attended and passed these rigorous courses to know what needs to be taught and how to teach it.

It does go on to discuss other qualifications, so I was hasty when I said that it "implies sufficient."

I have zero idea what you mean by "UNless you created that INgunowner account." I quoted your message and referred to the article at the link you posted.

 

[protias]

In your message #3109, you included this link: Bad Training Worse Than No Training - AllOutdoor.com

At that link, the article includes this passage:



It does go on to discuss other qualifications, so I was hasty when I said that it "implies sufficient."

I have zero idea what you mean by "UNless you created that INgunowner account." I quoted your message and referred to the article at the link you posted.

Yes, in my post 3109, I was quoting another member, which is why I'm confused in your post 3114 where you say, "However, your assertion that bad training is worse than no training is often true (and dovetails nicely with what I just wrote)."

 

[INgunowner]

Yes, in my post 3109, I was quoting another member,

That would be me, in post #3105 I stated that training cannot correct a deficient mindset.
Firearms training is basic; It is a set of fundamental concepts that allow the user to manipulate a tool in order to achieve a goal.
There are two glaring faults that relate to the vast majority of training enterprises.
The hardest part of training is for an instructor is selling it as an absolute imperative for firearms ownership and/or effective use.
The most frustrating part of training for a client is wading through the sea of useless cash grab scams to find meaningful platform instruction.

Most training helps in the weapons manipulation arena but fails to radically alter the mindset of the client.
This failure cannot be blamed on the instructor anymore than the instructor can take credit for the enlightenment of a client.
Choice can be encouraged and/or rewarded, but never forced that is its essence.
Choice is the only catalyst of mental renovation.

As to your bad training is worse than no training link, Mindset>Training.

P.S. not rhino

 

[Bobkunz]

I am just going to through my two cents in.
How I carry differs from location to location. If I am in Starbucks or Dunkin Donuts or someplace that is not friendly or appropriate, I conceal. If it's Rural King, a gun store, or just hanging around I open carry. I usually have several options with me so that I can change carry style based on location. Another thing I do is make sure I can conceal my open carry if necessary. For instance, my Glock is an open carry tool; but I have a holster that sits high enough up that I can pull my shirt over it and be concealed (not all that well depending on the shirt) so that if I make a pitstop at a gas station or something I won't cause a raucous.
*note* I travel a lot so my carry requirements change by state.

 

[protias]

I am just going to through my two cents in.
How I carry differs from location to location. If I am in Starbucks or Dunkin Donuts or someplace that is not friendly or appropriate, I conceal. If it's Rural King, a gun store, or just hanging around I open carry. I usually have several options with me so that I can change carry style based on location. Another thing I do is make sure I can conceal my open carry if necessary. For instance, my Glock is an open carry tool; but I have a holster that sits high enough up that I can pull my shirt over it and be concealed (not all that well depending on the shirt) so that if I make a pitstop at a gas station or something I won't cause a raucous.
*note* I travel a lot so my carry requirements change by state.

So you didn't read the first post?