The Open Carry Argument

[hog slayer]

So, is there documentation of every time you make a decision that we can look up on Google? Of course not. It's the same for criminals who pass up visibly armed citizens for an easier target. If you read some of the information out there that you can Google, criminals have been interviewed about how they select their victims and how they react to armed citizens. You can look up that information. I believe John Lott, Jr, who conducted some of those interviews, has sections in his books that reference those interviews.

Bottom line, if you have any understanding of how criminals select their victims, it's pretty obvious that most, not all, are going to pass up a target they consider a tough target. An open carrier, who isn't distracted and is paying attention to their surroundings, is definitely not an easy target and not one that many criminals would try to interact with.

I gather 3 main points from your argument

1)you believe what these otherwise untrustworthy criminals tell you after they're caught? Really? That's interesting.
2)you want me to let post 3210 go as having been poorly worded and don't think you exactly Google this as a one for one?
3)you feel like you can be "turned on" all the time while open carrying, thus you are protecting yourself passively by a show of lethal force?

 

[wtburnette]

I gather 3 main points from your argument

1)you believe what these otherwise untrustworthy criminals tell you after they're caught? Really? That's interesting.
2)you want me to let post 3210 go as having been poorly worded and don't think you exactly Google this as a one for one?
3)you feel like you can be "turned on" all the time while open carrying, thus you are protecting yourself passively by a show of lethal force?

Frankly, I don't care what you believe. I believe that open carrying a handgun is a deterrent and causes criminals to pass you up for a softer target. This opinion comes from hours of research I've done on the topic. I don't have the time to go look up links for you, but since you mentioned Google you can use it the same way I did. Whether you choose to agree with the research or not is your choice. Yes, I believe that open carrying, mixed with situational awareness causes criminals to pass me by. It's not a magical talisman and I train with my gun and pay attention to my surroundings. I believe that concealing your weapon can make you a target. You take it as a positive when you read an article about a concealed carrier who has to defend themselves, where I take that as a negative. In my opinion, had that person been open carrying, they may have possibly been passed up. Everybody interprets information differently and everyone makes different choices based on that information. I have no problem if you feel conceal carry is the best, but I feel differently. JFC.

 

[actaeon277]

So..."If you’re going to carry a firearm, it is imperative for you to dress to the gun, and ensure that your concealed weapon is indeed concealed"

Just curious, but if it's truly concealed, how is it that someone would know to rob someone of their gun? After actually reading the article and understand that these two instances show a poorly concealed firearm, which point does it enforce?

Concealed is not invisible.

 

[Nakatomi]

Just to jump in to an epic thread, I straddle the fence and "hybrid carry". I wear a t-shirt tucked into my pants, and an open shirt over that. I have a holster on my hip, and most of the time, the outer shirt covers it, like when I am at the mall or something. I prefer not getting any (or much) attention. However, if I am pumping gas, grabbing money at an ATM, or if my spider sense is tingling in any way, I tuck the outer shirt between my holster and belt, exposing it.

 

[Lelliott8]

Just to jump in to an epic thread, I straddle the fence and "hybrid carry". I wear a t-shirt tucked into my pants, and an open shirt over that. I have a holster on my hip, and most of the time, the outer shirt covers it, like when I am at the mall or something. I prefer not getting any (or much) attention. However, if I am pumping gas, grabbing money at an ATM, or if my spider sense is tingling in any way, I tuck the outer shirt between my holster and belt, exposing it.

Now you've done it. Couldn't just say Automatic Teller Machine, you had to drag ATM into this again. Oh well. Welcome to the world of hybrid carry, where we non-binary snowflakes don't submit to the patriarchy of cis-carry scum!

 

[hog slayer]

Frankly, I don't care what you believe. I believe that open carrying a handgun is a deterrent and causes criminals to pass you up for a softer target. This opinion comes from hours of research I've done on the topic. I don't have the time to go look up links for you, but since you mentioned Google you can use it the same way I did. Whether you choose to agree with the research or not is your choice. Yes, I believe that open carrying, mixed with situational awareness causes criminals to pass me by. It's not a magical talisman and I train with my gun and pay attention to my surroundings. I believe that concealing your weapon can make you a target. You take it as a positive when you read an article about a concealed carrier who has to defend themselves, where I take that as a negative. In my opinion, had that person been open carrying, they may have possibly been passed up. Everybody interprets information differently and everyone makes different choices based on that information. I have no problem if you feel conceal carry is the best, but I feel differently. JFC.

A little testy? Didn't know I'd strike a nerve so easily. You presume that I take things as positives or negatives. A brief overview will indicate I was asking Dave to make good on a statement. You may involve yourself,if you wish, but you have only presented two logical fallacies. The first is an appeal to authority and the second is being the question.

I also made no indication of my belief in the matter.

I understand not having the time or desire. You can always bow out

 

[2A_Tom]

Oregon Man Openly Carrying Gun Has It Stolen at Gunpoint

https://www.google.com/amp/koin.com...en-carry-law-robbed-of-gun/amp/?client=safari

Next

OK, That is one, unless you want to post the other 30 accounts of that story. DaveM owes you one.

When I read his post I was a bit concerned that it would be difficult to google a negative, but maybe he has ammo I don't know of.

As for interviews with incarcerated criminals, I have found that unrepentant malefactors are very loquacious, to the point of bragging of their exploits. Whereas they may exaggerate their bravado, I see no good reason to lie about their desire to hit soft targets.

 

[wtburnette]

A little testy? Didn't know I'd strike a nerve so easily. You presume that I take things as positives or negatives. A brief overview will indicate I was asking Dave to make good on a statement. You may involve yourself,if you wish, but you have only presented two logical fallacies. The first is an appeal to authority and the second is being the question.

I also made no indication of my belief in the matter.

I understand not having the time or desire. You can always bow out

Sorry if I was unclear. No, I wasn't being testy. If you choose to prefer CC that's fine with me. I prefer to OC when possible and CC when I don't have any other choice. Great thing is we can both continue on just fine.

 

[femurphy77]

I posted here.

 

[hog slayer]

https://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/10/11/food-lion-security-guard-assassinated-gun/

I couldn't believe the nerve of this author. No stats. Just opinions

 

[Anima mundi]

https://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/10/11/food-lion-security-guard-assassinated-gun/

I couldn't believe the nerve of this author. No stats. Just opinions

I don't fall into any of those categories of open carrier... am I doing it wrong? Wait, am I even open carrying?!

 

[ashby koss]

Just to jump in to an epic thread, I straddle the fence and "hybrid carry". I wear a t-shirt tucked into my pants, and an open shirt over that. I have a holster on my hip, and most of the time, the outer shirt covers it, like when I am at the mall or something. I prefer not getting any (or much) attention. However, if I am pumping gas, grabbing money at an ATM, or if my spider sense is tingling in any way, I tuck the outer shirt between my holster and belt, exposing it.

This is how I tend to go.

My overly passive father "doesnt like the idea that i carry at all" thing is, ive carried for over 10 years and hes never had a problem until I decided to start open carrying. Out of sight, out of mind. It's crazy how stupid sheeple believe that if you cant see something that they are safe. I mean i cant see someone breaking into my car every time i go to the mall, but we still lock the doors "just in case".. It's none sense. Love to OC because why should I hide my RIGHTS.

 

[hog slayer]

This is how I tend to go.

My overly passive father "doesnt like the idea that i carry at all" thing is, ive carried for over 10 years and hes never had a problem until I decided to start open carrying. Out of sight, out of mind. It's crazy how stupid sheeple believe that if you cant see something that they are safe. I mean i cant see someone breaking into my car every time i go to the mall, but we still lock the doors "just in case".. It's none sense. Love to OC because why should I hide my RIGHTS.

Oh boy! This post does the job of the pro-CCW quite well enough on its own

 

[2A_Tom]

How so?

 

[eldirector]

I love the circular logic of some gun-butters. Had a conversation with a retired LEO a while back that went something like this:

RLE: I'm OK with folks concealing, if they really NEED to carry.
Me: Just CC? Not open?
RLE: Not open. LE needs to tell the good guys from the bad.
Me: So, bad guys open carry?
RLE: Not usually. They tuck it under their hoodie or stuff it in their pants.
Me: So, wouldn't it be easier if the GOOD guys carried openly?
RLE: {Incoherent mumbling}

In my mind, the fight against OC is a fight against carrying at all. We should all be on the same side, and JFC.

 

[chipbennett]

I wouldn't mind viewing those links that you can Google showing an exposed firearm made a positive difference.

I'm glad you asked!

The Pro Liberty Choice: Dispelling The Myths Of Open Carry | The Daily Caller

Statistics are hard to come by here, but there is much anecdotal evidence. One of the most famous cases that made the news was the Kennesaw, Georgia, Waffle House robbery that was avoided simply because there were armed citizens sitting in there eating. What is not so well known is that there are many police reports in which criminal suspects who were taken into custody stated that they saw people openly carrying firearms in a business and postponed their attack until they left.


I’ve read many stories on state gun forums and firearms blogs of open carry criminal avoidance encounters. One story that sticks in my mind was a father and his daughter returning to their car in a Target parking lot when a man approached them. His approach “line” was asking for a light, but when he got close enough to see the father was openly carrying a holstered pistol, he quickly turned around mid-sentence and left. Maybe innocent? We’ll never know for sure.


In another encounter, a man who had been hanging around a gas station pay phone approached a husband and his wife when they pulled into the gas station. While the husband was out of his truck, the man began heading in his direction and picked up his pace slightly as he drew near. The husband didn’t look directly at him, but instead raised his arm up to appear to be checking the straps holding their cargo. When the man saw his openly carried pistol, he immediately changed his direction and began walking down the street away from the truck instead of toward it like he had been. Do we know for sure the man had evil intent? No, but his actions indicated it was likely.


A similar thing happened to a woman at a gas station. She was running low on gas and stopped to fill up in a small town. As she was pumping gas, two men approached her from different directions. When one got to within twenty feet she yelled, “Stop!” but the man just laughed. However, when he saw her openly carried pistol he turned and ran toward the street as the other man ran in the opposite direction.


Again, this story was repeated with another open carrier at a gas station. A group of guys were approaching the armed citizen as he was out of his car pumping gas with the intent to rob him until one cried out, “****, he’s got a gun!” At that point they all ran back to their car, jumped in, and took off in a hurry. The fact is, there are many stories like these.

 

[chipbennett]

Here's John Lott, who has studied the crime statistics related to firearm ownership/carry. The point of this post is that concealed carry deters more crime than open carry for the herd. But in making his argument, he leaves this little gem:

With CCW, the attacker doesn't know who is able to defend themselves and he doesn't know whom to attack first.

Take the case of attacking individual victims who are not around other people. Having more people carry concealed generally produces more of an overall crime reducing effect than open carry because criminals will leave the open carry person alone and then wait for someone that is unarmed. Concealed carry people produce a benefit for people other than themselves.

John Lott's Website: Note on concealed versus open carry

Even John Lott admits that, for the individual, open carry deters crime more than concealed carry.

 

[TRW]

Having watched hundreds of self-defense videos involving firearms, the most successful tactic I've seen is the counter-ambush. You see it time and time again; an armed robber enters a transitional space, threatening with a firearm or knife and getting the drop on everyone, often leveling the weapon at the CC person, the CC person waits for the the attacker's attention to move elsewhere (feigning compliance) so as not to draw on a drawn gun, and then CC person conceals his draw and makes his counter ambush - ending the threat. That scenario has been played out successfully so many times that it has me thinking of how that scenario would play out while open carrying. Considering how the attacker so often rushes into the transitional space with weapon at ready and often finger on trigger. While they wouldn't notice the open carrier right away necessarily since they're rushing in, the attackers do seem to train the weapon on individuals in the space to intimidate and guarantee compliance; and when that happens they would notice the open carry. And they, having the drop, would be able to attack. Sure, they could flee, but with attacker having their gun drawn, with adrenaline pumping, and having already rushed into the space, it seems like the odds would be in favor of using their tactical advantage (and considering their mental state) to kill the open carrier. And one thing is pretty clear from video evidence, drawing on a drawn gun doesn't work out so well usually.

I know this sounds like the tactical advantage argument for CCW. But, having watching a lot of video now, I am just revisiting the argument. I am not yet convinced by it entirely. I open carry (and CC) still. Heck, I just open carried at Heine Bros in Jeff 20 minutes ago. Half the time people don't even notice I am openly carrying. The other half all eyes are on my firearm. So it's hard to make arguments about open carry in any direction. The positive argument that says OC is a deterrent only works if people actually notice the gun. The negative argument that you will lose the tactical advantage by attacker seeing your gun only makes sense if they can spot your gun. I had an open carry trip with a full size 9 on my hip in a Safariland and 2 people seemed to notice out the half dozen places I visited over the course of hours. Today, all eyes were on me (I hate that. Stresses me out) and I had a compact FNS 9 on hip hugging safariland.

I am not so much offering a counter argument so much as hoping for more interaction on the idea of OC and counter ambush when the threat enters your space but is not necessarily targeting you specifically, which is so common in robberies and mass shooting.

 

[2A_Tom]

It is funny there are not a lot of videos showing the perpetrator coming in and holding everyone at bay when there is an OCer present.

I know that this sounds like the deterrent advantage of OC, but who knows?

 

[Anima mundi]

Here's John Lott, who has studied the crime statistics related to firearm ownership/carry. The point of this post is that concealed carry deters more crime than open carry for the herd. But in making his argument, he leaves this little gem:



John Lott's Website: Note on concealed versus open carry

Even John Lott admits that, for the individual, open carry deters crime more than concealed carry.

This is a thought that's always bugged me a little since I open carry nearly all the time. Though I may be deterring violence directed specifically at me, I'm also depriving others (who may not be armed) of potential intervention in a violent act committed against them. I'm not really sure how to square that circle.