The Open Carry Argument

[jbombelli]

This is a thought that's always bugged me a little since I open carry nearly all the time. Though I may be deterring violence directed specifically at me, I'm also depriving others (who may not be armed) of potential intervention in a violent act committed against them. I'm not really sure how to square that circle.

They aren't your responsibility. Their safety and defense is their responsibility. If they haven't armed themselves, that's on them. You can't be everywhere.

 

[JettaKnight]

This is a thought that's always bugged me a little since I open carry nearly all the time. Though I may be deterring violence directed specifically at me, I'm also depriving others (who may not be armed) of potential intervention in a violent act committed against them. I'm not really sure how to square that circle.

Others will see you OC, realize it's perfectly acceptable to do so, then OC themselves.

 

[2A_Tom]

Others will see you OC, realize it's perfectly acceptable to do so, then OC themselves.

At least we hope so.

 

[hog slayer]

Victim identified in homicide at High Point army surplus store | myfox8.com

OC. Got shot in the back.

 

[nakinate]

Victim identified in homicide at High Point army surplus store | myfox8.com

OC. Got shot in the back.

 

[KLB]

Victim identified in homicide at High Point army surplus store | myfox8.com

OC. Got shot in the back.

Is your contention that he was shot because he was OCing, or is it that if he had been CCing he would have been able to surprise the guys robbing the store?

This was a person working at a store that sold guns, not a citizen OCing. The bad guys apparently went there to steal guns. So, I doubt his method of carry had anything to do with the outcome.

 

[ATM]

Victim identified in homicide at High Point army surplus store | myfox8.com

OC. Got shot in the back.

I must have missed where carry method was mentioned as a contributing factor here.

If someone plans to murder you, the fact that you carry visibly or concealed is of little to no significance.

 

[hog slayer]

I must have missed where carry method was mentioned as a contributing factor here.

If someone plans to murder you, the fact that you carry visibly or concealed is of little to no significance.

Method of carry not specified in the article. It's just how he carried daily. And I would agree, that if someone plans to murder you,you'll be operating out of the ambush. Would he have had a better chance at fighting back of they weren't sure he carried or not(if they didn't KNOW he was carrying it may not have been initiated so discreetly) ? Did they (criminals) really look into the robbery or did this sort of just be their random target of opportunity?

 

[hog slayer]

Is your contention that he was shot because he was OCing, or is it that if he had been CCing he would have been able to surprise the guys robbing the store?

This was a person working at a store that sold guns, not a citizen OCing. The bad guys apparently went there to steal guns. So, I doubt his method of carry had anything to do with the outcome.

there's no contention,here. I just put these out here on the appropriate thread so all can see and make a more educated decision. Maybe this isn't the best thread. The title sure gets a lot of attention.

 

[2A_Tom]

The article is not arguing OC/CC you want it to be so you post it here.

Appropriate place? You think so, so I guess you are right.

 

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

Having watched hundreds of self-defense videos involving firearms, the most successful tactic I've seen is the counter-ambush. You see it time and time again; an armed robber enters a transitional space, threatening with a firearm or knife and getting the drop on everyone, often leveling the weapon at the CC person, the CC person waits for the the attacker's attention to move elsewhere (feigning compliance) so as not to draw on a drawn gun, and then CC person conceals his draw and makes his counter ambush - ending the threat. That scenario has been played out successfully so many times that it has me thinking of how that scenario would play out while open carrying. Considering how the attacker so often rushes into the transitional space with weapon at ready and often finger on trigger. While they wouldn't notice the open carrier right away necessarily since they're rushing in, the attackers do seem to train the weapon on individuals in the space to intimidate and guarantee compliance; and when that happens they would notice the open carry. And they, having the drop, would be able to attack. Sure, they could flee, but with attacker having their gun drawn, with adrenaline pumping, and having already rushed into the space, it seems like the odds would be in favor of using their tactical advantage (and considering their mental state) to kill the open carrier. And one thing is pretty clear from video evidence, drawing on a drawn gun doesn't work out so well usually.

I know this sounds like the tactical advantage argument for CCW. But, having watching a lot of video now, I am just revisiting the argument. I am not yet convinced by it entirely. I open carry (and CC) still. Heck, I just open carried at Heine Bros in Jeff 20 minutes ago. Half the time people don't even notice I am openly carrying. The other half all eyes are on my firearm. So it's hard to make arguments about open carry in any direction. The positive argument that says OC is a deterrent only works if people actually notice the gun. The negative argument that you will lose the tactical advantage by attacker seeing your gun only makes sense if they can spot your gun. I had an open carry trip with a full size 9 on my hip in a Safariland and 2 people seemed to notice out the half dozen places I visited over the course of hours. Today, all eyes were on me (I hate that. Stresses me out) and I had a compact FNS 9 on hip hugging safariland.

I am not so much offering a counter argument so much as hoping for more interaction on the idea of OC and counter ambush when the threat enters your space but is not necessarily targeting you specifically, which is so common in robberies and mass shooting.

Could you link me to a few of those hundred that show this counter ambush tactic?

TYIA.

Stocks

 

[chipbennett]

This is a thought that's always bugged me a little since I open carry nearly all the time. Though I may be deterring violence directed specifically at me, I'm also depriving others (who may not be armed) of potential intervention in a violent act committed against them. I'm not really sure how to square that circle.

Said others have agency to decide whether or not they carry a firearm (openly or concealed), correct?

I'm unsure why you're holding yourself responsible for the decisions of others.

 

[chipbennett]

Victim identified in homicide at High Point army surplus store | myfox8.com

OC. Got shot in the back.

Store owner found, shot dead, behind the counter of his store.

What's your point?

 

[hog slayer]

Store owner found, shot dead, behind the counter of his store.

What's your point?

Come now, Chip. Let's do this together. The store owner carried openly daily as he is said to have been this day. Seems he was a well liked man from the army doggies stationed there. On this day two robbers came into his store and when it was opportune shot him in the back. My point, while laid out in posts 3248/9, really is just to keep the information flowing. It's information that we use to draw our conclusions as to best practices and nothing more.

Good enough point?

 

[hog slayer]

Said others have agency to decide whether or not they carry a firearm (openly or concealed), correct?

I'm unsure why you're holding yourself responsible for the decisions of others.

Not decisions, but safety. Don't worry, I'd risk my life to protect yours. I know where you stand.

 

[2A_Tom]

Not decisions, but safety. Don't worry, I'd risk my life to protect yours. I know where you stand.

If you know what you will do when the chips are down, you are better than most.

Outside training, what is your experience?

 

[hog slayer]

Outside? Many hours under Uncle Sam's bill and many on mine. I don't specifically know if that'd be outside. 13 years active, a few years overseas carrying a gun.

Better than most, maybE, I don't know. Most of the service members on this forum went thru a very significant change of pace when recognizing that they suddenly had become their own recon element with nobody covering their 6. Most of them have a life belief of self sacrifice. Frankly, it's s lot less of better or worse thing, but a well thought out value to my life and freedom. And I would spend them for you.

 

[TRW]

Could you link me to a few of those hundred that show this counter ambush tactic?

TYIA.

Stocks

Peruse Active Self Protection Youtube Channel. You should be able to dozens of examples with relative ease; that and it's a gloriously helpful. Probably one of the best educational resources out there if not the best on self-defense with a firearm.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsE_m2z1NrvF2ImeNWh84mw


But here is three to get you started:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Ovb5T68oQ&t=11s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjP18f9yJGE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAc6Q0vIqCc

 

[chipbennett]

Come now, Chip. Let's do this together. The store owner carried openly daily as he is said to have been this day. Seems he was a well liked man from the army doggies stationed there. On this day two robbers came into his store and when it was opportune shot him in the back. My point, while laid out in posts 3248/9, really is just to keep the information flowing. It's information that we use to draw our conclusions as to best practices and nothing more.

Good enough point?

If there is no evidence or implication that the store owner's method of carry factored into the actions of his attackers, how is it germane to the subject at hand?

 

[chipbennett]

Not decisions, but safety. Don't worry, I'd risk my life to protect yours. I know where you stand.

How do you know where I stand?

(PROTIP: assumptions are not your friend here...)