The Open Carry Argument

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

Peruse Active Self Protection Youtube Channel. You should be able to dozens of examples with relative ease; that and it's a gloriously helpful. Probably one of the best educational resources out there if not the best on self-defense with a firearm.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsE_m2z1NrvF2ImeNWh84mw


But here is three to get you started:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Ovb5T68oQ&t=11s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjP18f9yJGE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAc6Q0vIqCc

Excellent examples. Thnaks for posting them.

I will point out that all 3 of those could have also been done by an OCer. None of the perps paid any attention to the self defenders actions.

 

[cbhausen]

I love the circular logic of some gun-butters. Had a conversation with a retired LEO a while back that went something like this:

RLE: I'm OK with folks concealing, if they really NEED to carry.
Me: Just CC? Not open?
RLE: Not open. LE needs to tell the good guys from the bad.
Me: So, bad guys open carry?
RLE: Not usually. They tuck it under their hoodie or stuff it in their pants.
Me: So, wouldn't it be easier if the GOOD guys carried openly?
RLE: {Incoherent mumbling}

In my mind, the fight against OC is a fight against carrying at all. We should all be on the same side, and JFC.

I would have challenged him on the "need" part too.

 

[cbhausen]

All this counter-ambush stuff misses the point that concealed carriers look more like potential victims than open carriers do. We will never know how many situations where avoided because the bad guy saw an openly carried firearm and moved on to softer targets. Every DGU from concealment is a counter-ambush as well, further weakening the argument. JFC.

 

[2A_Tom]

All this counter-ambush stuff misses the point that concealed carriers look more like potential victims than open carriers do. We will never know how many situations where avoided because the bad guy saw an openly carried firearm and moved on to softer targets. Every DGU from concealment is a counter-ambush as well, further weakening the argument. JFC.

Which begs the question, How much more often do concealed carriers use their guns than OCers.

 

[TRW]

Excellent examples. Thnaks for posting them.

I will point out that all 3 of those could have also been done by an OCer. None of the perps paid any attention to the self defenders actions.

They weren't paying close attention. But in the videos they were visually scanned, hence the defenders concealed their draws. But I am sure a discreetly open carried firearm would have similar effect most times. It's hard to say. I still open carry. Did so today at Lowe's.

 

[TRW]

All this counter-ambush stuff misses the point that concealed carriers look more like potential victims than open carriers do. We will never know how many situations where avoided because the bad guy saw an openly carried firearm and moved on to softer targets. Every DGU from concealment is a counter-ambush as well, further weakening the argument. JFC.

I think the scenario of a bad guy rushing into a transitional space doesn't fit into your argument very neatly. OCing wouldn't be avoided if the attacker doesn't know there is an OC until after said bad guy's gun is drawn and scenario is being played out. By that time it's fight or flight for the bad guy assuming the OC is observed. But I don't have many examples of OCs responding to threats of that nature anyway. There are hundreds of videos of CC self-defenders. All the open carry self-defense footage I've seen are uniformed guards getting taken down, or one incident where a stupid OCer with a gun hanging loose gets his gun stolen by a random guy. But it's not quite fair I'd guess, because OC is extremely rare outside of uniforms.

Frankly, even for just the sake of normalizing firearms through responsible open carry is worth it to me outside the tactical advantage arguments.

 

[ATM]

So, if carrying tends to deter the observant criminals and makes little to no difference to the unobservant/oblivious criminals, where and when is the case made for concealment being an advantage?

 

[2A_Tom]

A, Many of see that point clearly. But some have been persuaded differently. It is kind of like faith and works.

 

[Woobie]

So, if carrying tends to deter the observant criminals and makes little to no difference to the unobservant/oblivious criminals, where and when is the case made for concealment being an advantage?

Criminals are not monolithic, or even part of an organization for the most part. It is quite presumptive to say "A" activity produces "B" result in all criminals. It only produces that result in certain individuals, and a different result in others. And this can vary in the same individuals in differing times and circumstances. Sadly, they tend to not be available for comment directly preceding a potential crime.

 

[ATM]

A, Many of see that point clearly. But some have been persuaded differently. It is kind of like faith and works.

Ambushing people with faith works.

 

[ATM]

Criminals are not monolithic, or even part of an organization for the most part. It is quite presumptive to say "A" activity produces "B" result in all criminals. It only produces that result in certain individuals, and a different result in others. And this can vary in the same individuals in differing times and circumstances. Sadly, they tend to not be available for comment directly preceding a potential crime.

While not absolute, I think it wise to take into account the insights shared by criminals.

 

[themurseman]

I would not want to draw unwarranted attention to myself.

 

[hog slayer]

Isn't this an easy target for new comers? Wow! I guess it's a good education in the ways of INGO. Themurseman: I tend to agree with you. I seldom OC outside of yard work and the like. But, you'll find staunch opposition to your perspective here. If only you'd read the thread.

You may very well have drawn unwanted attention anyways

 

[KLB]

Why would anyone object to his perspective? We may not have the same perspective nor agree with his logic, but he is free to feel however he likes.

It would be good for him to at least read the beginning of the thread though.

 

[cce1302]

I'm looking forward to hearing more from him. From a question he asked in another thread, it seems that he is a gun control supporter anyway.

 

[2A_Tom]

Why would anyone object to his perspective? We may not have the same perspective nor agree with his logic, but he is free to feel however he likes.

It would be good for him to at least read the beginning of the thread though.

I agree. I am an OC advocate and 2A activist. I OC "to" draw attention to the nice, jovial, good natured fellow who carries a gun all the time and has time to talk about the law, guns, INGO or gun safety.

As for murseman just carry. If cce1302 is correct and he is trolling then there is no hope for him.

I just found the post that cce was talking about and I do not think murse is anti, he just hasn't thought it through or been on INGO long enough.

 

[chipbennett]

I would not want to draw unwarranted attention to myself.

Most of us feel the same way.

But what does such a desire have to do with carrying openly vs. concealed?

 

[cce1302]

I agree. I am an OC advocate and 2A activist. I OC "to" draw attention to the nice, jovial, good natured fellow who carries a gun all the time and has time to talk about the law, guns, INGO or gun safety.

As for murseman just carry. If cce1302 is correct and he is trolling then there is no hope for him.

I just found the post that cce was talking about and I do not think murse is anti, he just hasn't thought it through or been on INGO long enough.

I didn't mean to give the impression that I think he is trolling or that he is anti-gun. I simply stated that it seems from another question that he supports gun control.

 

[2A_Tom]

Sorry My inference.

I did correct it. He seems like a good guy, just not a lot of prior interaction with informed folk.

 

[Anima mundi]

Most of us feel the same way.

But what does such a desire have to do with carrying openly vs. concealed?

Lack of experience makes him think everyone is looking at him when he carries.

I'll admit I used to have that anxiety when I first started carrying but open carrying for a long time now has taught me very few people notice or even care if they do. Considering that, and how open carry is more comfortable and faster than the alternatives, I've open carried everywhere I feasibly can. The only exception is when I'm having a cruddy day and don't trust my SA as much.