The Problem with Third Party Candidates

[dburkhead]

I voted for Ron Paul in the Republican Primary. Any other questions? Please do take over the Republican party & start fielding candidates at all levels of government who understand our Federal & State Constitutions & the oaths they swear to uphold them.

Ron Paul is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. When you couldn't get enough votes in the primary to beat other Republican candidates, how in the world could you think you'd get enough in the General election?

So what, exactly, is Ron Paul doing for you in the White House right now?

Your definition of worse might be different than mine. I still see the PATRIOT Act as worse than National Health Care. So, by your standards, I should have voted for Obama over McCain or Barr (who my voted went to in an attempt at getting public financing in 2012).

If you really think that the Patriot act (what it actually says instead of what the Media claims it says) is worse than Obamacare, then maybe you should have.

To be quite honest with you, I would have had to choose Obama over McCain in the POTUS election based on a long list of tangible & intangible criteria. McCain really was a turd sandwich IMO. That's why my vote went to Bob Barr. Not because I wanted him as my president but because I wanted to do my part in trying to secure public financing for a third party in 2012.

So you could have another candidate to feel good about voting for even though he lost?

 

[mrjarrell]

Well, let's see. Mine has allowed the '94 AWB to sunset, has prevented AWB II from being passed, has stopped civil suits against gun manufacturers for criminal misuse of guns, has nominated and confirmed justices that confirmed RKBA as an individual right, and so on.

What legislation have Libertarian candidates gotten passed or were instrumental in stopping again?

Stop pi**ing your vote away, vote for libertarians and find out that they'll do. Again, I point to people like Ed Coleman as an example of what libertarians want to accomplish and what republicans and democrats stand in the way of.

 

[CarmelHP]

I firmly believe that as long as we only have two parties, our system will suck. The Libertarian Party is the 3rd largest, and as such, I decided to spend my vote trying to secure public financing so that the unwashed masses might finally become aware that more than 2 parties even exist.

So long as folks like you keep insisting that it's an "us" or "them" dichotomy, our nation is doomed to failure, IMO. Of your two supposed choices, sometimes the Republican is the candidate most interested in leaving my rights & my money alone. Sometimes it's the Democrat. Though you guys keep saying it, I'll never believe that Republicans are always a better choice than Democrats.

That's the biggest failure of some of you Republicans. You think that just because you're fiscally conservative, that you're on the same team as libertarian-minded people. While, many of us libertarian-minded people see your social conservatism as a systematic attempt at fascist control over our deeds & actions.

What a hyperventilating dodge of a answer. In Roll Call 398 on H.R. 3162 on October 24, 2001 Bob Barr, the presidential candidate you voted for, the Libertarian Party candidate, voted with 357 other U.S. House members to pass the Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism (USA PATRIOT ACT) Act of 2001. By your definition, he is an unacceptable candidate and you should be ashamed. Why should anyone support the Libertarian Party if, by your own definition, the only alternative they offer is unacceptable? Apparently ideological purity is only a tool Libertarians use to beat up those that don't immediately fall lock-step into agreement with them. Why should anyone trust a party whose advocates consider those that they'd wish to persuade, the "unwashed masses." One of the things that bothers me about LP supporters is that most I have encountered consider themselves messianic evangelists and anyone who disagrees is a recalcitrant heathen worthy of dispatch.

 

[dross]

Stop pi**ing your vote away, vote for libertarians and find out that they'll do. Again, I point to people like Ed Coleman as an example of what libertarians want to accomplish and what republicans and democrats stand in the way of.

This discussion has moved far beyond the level of your first sentence. Catch up. Your post made you look silly.

 

[Rizzo]

Give me liberty or give me death.

 

[mrjarrell]

This discussion has moved far beyond the level of your first sentence. Catch up. Your post made you look silly.

No. Your response made you look like...well, you can guess.

 

[dross]

Give me liberty or give me death.

Great slogan. Do you mean it? The guy who said it, lived it.

 

[rambone]

2012 Presidential Election:

3rd Parties: 15% (a 1,500% increase from 2008)
Republican: 40%
King Obama: 45%

 

[hornadylnl]

The final score of the game has been determined before the first pitch has been thrown. It's up on the scoreboard and recorded in the history books. You suit up and play in the charade if you want to but I'm not wasting my time going to the park. I'll spend my time and energy on myself.

Dburkhead, you like to cite history as evidence for going Galt leading to the dark ages. Can you cite any historical examples where liberty was won at the ballot box?

 

[Rizzo]

I don't like losing. But I'd rather lose for being right than win supporting wrong. McCain is evil.

NOt to mention, I don't think things will change fast. I think it has to get worse before it gets better.

BUT IF WE ARE HYPOCRITES VOTING FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE TRAITORS BECAUSE THEY ARE OUR TRAITORS NOT THEIR TRAITORS WE CAN'T EVER EDUCATE PEOPLE FOR CHANGE.

RON PAUL lost but he woke me up and millions like me. The tide is turning.

 

[PatriotPride]

A few points of observation. I supported Ron Paul in the POTUS election. Having had the opportunity to meet him and discuss where he stood on many issues, I firmly feel that he has the best interests of this nation and it's people and constitution at heart. THAT is why I supported him. I for one am tired of the mentality that we must choose the lesser of two evils. Yes, I would support Republicans over Democrats, based off of where the party tends to stand regarding the 2nd Amendment, abortion, etc. I'll be the first to admit that I am disillusioned with the system, and feel that our politicians are failing us on nearly every level. I've been advised and will in all likelihood continue to be advised that voting for a third party is a "waste of a vote". I feel that as long as we continue to choose the lesser of two evils, we will only serve to enable to politicians who continuously trample our Constitution. On a side note, I was and forever will be opposed to the USA PATRIOT ACT. We have given up many of our liberties under the pretense of "better security", and there is no end in sight. President Lincoln once said something to the effect of when a nation's government is failing it's people, the people have a right to rise up and replace the government. I believe now is the time. Too long have we resigned ourselves to choosing which party will bend us over the least-painfully. I, for one, will continue to vote 3rd party. Just my

 

[dburkhead]

I firmly believe that as long as we only have two parties, our system will suck. The Libertarian Party is the 3rd largest, and as such, I decided to spend my vote trying to secure public financing so that the unwashed masses might finally become aware that more than 2 parties even exist.

Look around at the various countries that have more than two parties. Do you honestly think that they are better than the US because of it?

So long as folks like you keep insisting that it's an "us" or "them" dichotomy, our nation is doomed to failure, IMO. Of your two supposed choices, sometimes the Republican is the candidate most interested in leaving my rights & my money alone. Sometimes it's the Democrat. Though you guys keep saying it, I'll never believe that Republicans are always a better choice than Democrats.

Multiple parties do nothing about the "us or them" belief. They just create more categories of "us" to consider everyone else "them."

That's the biggest failure of some of you Republicans. You think that just because you're fiscally conservative, that you're on the same team as libertarian-minded people. While, many of us libertarian-minded people see your social conservatism as a systematic attempt at fascist control over our deeds & actions.

The thing is the Democrats want the same ends (control over your deeds and actions). Republicans (some anyway) oppose pornography for "moral" reasons based on Christian attitudes toward sex, lust, etc. Democrats oppose it because it's "degrading to women." Both of them want it restricted. Both groups oppose Prostitution for much the same reasons.

Some Republicans want to tell you in some ways what you can and cannot sell. So do Democrats, just different things and different ways. Although there's a surprising amount of overlap.

Republicans want to restrict Freedom of Speech (and McCain certainly would be a textbook example of that)? Well so would Democrats, just different speech and by different venues.

All of the "anti-Freedom" things attributed to Republicans are things the Democrats are also guilty of. One might well suspect them of Psychological Projection. You might look at the vote for the Patriot Act (and its renewal). Democrats were just as likely to vote for it, both times, as Republicans.

So, yes, there's a lot of similarity between the Democrats and Republicans but where they are different, in almost every case the Republicans, by and large, come out ahead on the "Freedom" side of things.

Are there some Democrats that are better than some Republicans? Sure. But I'll take the average Republican over the average Democrat any day of the week.

And I'll take the average Republican who has a chance to beat the average Democrat over the Libertarian who has no chance at all (and I will put into that category any Libertarian who has already lost to the Republican in a primary election unless given very good reason to think otherwise).

And if the individual Democrat that I'm called to vote on really is better than the individual Republican against whom he's running? That's a tougher call. If the individual Democrat means we have Speaker Pelosi rather than Speaker Gingrich then I have to think larger than the individual seat. Even if not, well, the Democrat will caucus with Democrats and will likely support the Democrat (meaning the "average democrat") more than the "average Republican" so the Democrat had better be a whole lot better than the Republican to get my vote.

Sorry if you don't like it, but I just don't think that pouring flammables on a fire is a good way to put it out. And doing things that help the worst candidates get elected is doing just that.

 

[CarmelHP]

2012 Presidential Election:

3rd Parties: 15% (a 1,500% increase from 2008)
Republican: 40%
King Obama: 45%

So? George Wallace, in 1968, on the AIP ticket got 14% of the vote, where is the AIP today? Theodore Roosevelt in 1912 got 27% of the vote on the Bull Moose ticket, where's the Bull Moose Party today? Ross Perot got 19% in 1992, how's his party doing?

 

[dburkhead]

Stop pi**ing your vote away, vote for libertarians and find out that they'll do.

Continue to lose in the big elections.

Again, I point to people like Ed Coleman as an example of what libertarians want to accomplish and what republicans and democrats stand in the way of.

What they "want" to accomplish won't fill a thimble sized teacup in China.

To win they have to beat the Republicans and Democrats. If they could do that, there's nothing stopping them from running as Republicans or Democrats. All they have to do is get enough signatures to be on the primary ballot and then beat the other republican (or democrat) contenders in the primary. But if they could beat the Republican or Democrat in the general, then why can't they beat them in the primary.

 

[PatriotPride]

I understand what you're saying. No offence to you dburkhead...but I made up my mind long ago to not resign myself and give up. There's a fine line between being realistic and living in a fantasy and I understand that. I simply choose to believe that one day the people of this nation will rub the complacency from their eyes and choose the candidate (whichever party they may be) that will best defend and uphold the Constitution.

 

[CarmelHP]

BUT IF WE ARE HYPOCRITES VOTING FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE TRAITORS BECAUSE THEY ARE OUR TRAITORS NOT THEIR TRAITORS WE CAN'T EVER EDUCATE PEOPLE FOR CHANGE.

OK, so who did you vote for in the 2008 presidential general election?

 

[CarmelHP]

I feel that as long as we continue to choose the lesser of two evils, we will only serve to enable to politicians who continuously trample our Constitution. On a side note, I was and forever will be opposed to the USA PATRIOT ACT. We have given up many of our liberties under the pretense of "better security", and there is no end in sight.

And who did you vote for in the 2008 presidential general election?

 

[dburkhead]

The final score of the game has been determined before the first pitch has been thrown. It's up on the scoreboard and recorded in the history books. You suit up and play in the charade if you want to but I'm not wasting my time going to the park. I'll spend my time and energy on myself.

Dburkhead, you like to cite history as evidence for going Galt leading to the dark ages. Can you cite any historical examples where liberty was won at the ballot box?

What makes you think that I believe that there is any solution (long term)?

That I think that causing the collapse of civilization can make things incomparably worse to how they are now does not mean that I have a fix.

I don't have a fix for "old age" either, but that doesn't mean I'm going to commit suicide as an alternative.

 

[Councilor Ed Coleman]

Guess I should not expect support from dburkhead in my future efforts over the rights of firearms owners. :-)

Anyone who noticed. Monday night I got a Special Resolution passed through the council in favor of personal carry rights. I plan to continue working on more proposals to support gun owners. Name me one Republican in Indianapolis who has done as much as I have in recent times.

I don't see a point in arguing politics with people who's minds are made up. The one to argue may be right, but never wins against a made up mind.

Thanks to all of you who have supported me.

 

[dross]

I don't have a fix for "old age" either, but that doesn't mean I'm going to commit suicide as an alternative.

So you're just giving in? Because death is unfair, you are foolishly and traitorously collaborating with death by living your life in such a way as to only delay the inevitable. Rail against the unfairness of death by running red lights, skydiving, and ignoring gravity.

Live pure and embrace ideology over reality.