To All You Constitutional Sentimentalists

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  • smoking357

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    I see so many people here immaturely laud the Constitution and pine for a "return" to it, as if to posit that we're not living under it, presently. It's truly quite comical. What the sentimentalists must admit is that Roe v. Wade is Constitutional. The Federal Reserve is Constitutional. Massive taxation is Constitutional. Banning certain weapons is Constitutional. Anything that occurs today, by definition, is Constitutional. We're not living under the Roman Codex, after all.

    For all of you who are fuzzy on your history, here's an opportunity to read some scholarship on the power grab known as the Constitution. None of you have been taught this. Some of you won't understand it, while others of you will refuse to believe it, so impenetrable is their epistemology. Such is the current state of American education and the American mind. At least you were shown the light, once in your lives.

    articles of confederation coup - Google Search

    Murray N. Rothbard / Albert Jay Nock, Radical

    Albert Jay Nock, Radical
    Murray Rothbard
    [Reprinted from Fragments, Srping 1995]
    It has happened with every great radical in history: the moment he dies and is safely interred, interpreters and commentators leap in to dilute and bowdlerize his thought and his stature, and often succeed in transforming his public image into that of a safe and sound member of the conservative Establishment. The process almost succeeded with Thoreau: that fiery individualist, anarchist, and John Brown abolitionist, has been transmuted into a gentle and eccentric lover of nature. Only recently has Thoreau's essential radicalism been rediscovered.

    This bowdlerizing process has also been at work with the remains of Albert Jay Nock: that individualist, anarchist, and "isolationist" has been rapidly transformed into a sober, conservative thinker, his shade virtually made to rest cozily on conservative mastheads. Nock, like his spiritual ancestor Thoreau, deserves better of history. Frank Chodorov once wrote that anyone who calls him a "conservative" deserves a punch in the nose, and the same fate might well be meted out to those who are trying to pin that label on Albert Jay Nock.

    Nock, the author of "An Anarchist's Progress," defined the State as that institution which "claims and exercises the monopoly of crime" over its assumed territorial area. "It forbids private murder, but itself organizes murder on a colossal scale. It punishes private theft, but itself lays unscrupulous hands on anything it wants, whether the property of citizen or of alien."

    Hence he favorably quoted Mencken's charge that the State is "the common enemy of all well-disposed, industrious and decent men." Is this conservatism, with its theocracy, its witch-hunts and censorship, its cry of "support your local police"?

    Conservatives worship at the hallowed shrine of the American Constitution. Contrast Nock's realistic and blistering critique of that document in Our Enemy the State:

    "American economic interests had fallen into two grand divisions, the special interests in each having made common cause with a view to capturing control of the political means. One division comprised the speculating, industrial-commercial and creditor interests, with their natural allies of the bar and bench, the pulpit and the press. The other comprised the farmers and artisans and the debtor class generally...

    "The national scheme (as put forth in the Constitution) was by far the more congenial to those interests (of the first division) because it enabled an ever-closer centralization of control over the political means. For instance... many an industrialist could see the great primary advantage of being able to extend his exploiting operations over a nationwide free-trade area walled-in by a general tariff the closer the centralization, the larger the exploitable area. Any speculator in rental-values would be quick to see the advantage of bringing this form of opportunity under unified control. Any speculator in depreciated public securities would be strongly for a system that could offer him the use of the political means to bring back their face-value. Any ship-owner or foreign trader would be quick to see that his bread was buttered on the side of a national State which, if properly approached, might lend him the use of the political means by way of a subsidy, or would be able to back up some profitable but dubious freebooting enterprise with 'diplomatic representations' or with reprisals.

    "The farmers and the debtor class in general... [were not agreeable to] setting up a national replica of the British merchant-State, which they perceived was precisely what the classes grouped in the opposing grand division wished to do. These classes aimed at bringing in the British system of economics, politics and judicial control, on a nation-wide scale; and the interests grouped in the second division saw that what this would really come to was a shifting of the incidence of economic exploitation upon themselves...

    "The [Constitutional] convention was made up wholly of men representing the economic interests of the first division. The great majority of them, possibly as many as four-fifths, were public creditors; one-third were land-speculators,. some were moneylenders; one-fifth were industrialists, traders, shippers; and many of them were lawyers. They planned and executed a coup d'etat, simply tossing the Articles of Confederation into the wastebasket, and drafting a constitution de novo..


    Nock despised plutocratic Conservatism, and rightly saw Herbert Hoover as the embodiment of this point of view. Understanding the big business origins of statism in modem America, Nock heaped scorn upon the conservatives who joined him in opposing the New Deal which they themselves had prefigured.

    Above all, Albert Jay Nock hated militarism and intervention into foreign wars, and he opposed staunchly not only World Wars I and II but also, and with particular vehemence, America's aggressive invasion of Soviet Russia after the Bolshevik Revolution.

    There is no space here to discuss Albert Nock's great contributions to political thought and analysis: his use of Franz Oppenheimer's distinction between the "economic means" and the "political means," and his analysis of the State as the organization of the latter; his view of history as essentially a race between State power and social power; his opposition to compulsory mass education. Suffice it to conclude that Nock was an authentic American radical, in the great tradition stemming from Henry Thoreau. His only error was his deep-seated pessimism about any real improvement in the modern world; although considering what many of his present day epigones have made of him, his pessimism might well be justified.
     

    JBusch8899

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    I'll pipe in and state that there is a difference between a law being legal, and one as lawful, hence constitutional.

    The courts today utilize the legislative intent of a law to determine if a law is applicable to a particular situation. So why wouldn't we use the same method when it applies to constitutional issues? The original intent of the constitutional framers should be the yardstick to determine if a law is constitutional.

    Unfortunately, the progressive movement within this country has perverted the meaning of their words, to the point that those same founding fathers wouldn't recognize the government we have today.

    Circa 1920, the dean of law at Harvard University, Rosoe Pound, changed the format of it's curriculum, to reflect a study of largely judicial precedent from the study of the intent of the framers of the constitution. Other law schools followed suit, condemning ignorance of the framer's intentions upon future lawyers and judges, and as such, placed the opinion of the judiciary above such men as Madison and Jefferson.
     

    smoking357

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    I'll pipe in and state that there is a difference between a law being legal, and one as lawful, hence constitutional.

    Perhaps, but I demur. Remember, my argument is that the Constitution allowed to occur everything we have, today. Actually, that's not much of an argument; it's nigh tautological. The Constitution didn't keep all this from occurring.
     

    Hemingway

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    I see so many people here immaturely laud the Constitution and pine for a "return" to it, as if to posit that we're not living under it, presently. It's truly quite comical. What the sentimentalists must admit is that Roe v. Wade is Constitutional. The Federal Reserve is Constitutional. Massive taxation is Constitutional. Banning certain weapons is Constitutional. Anything that occurs today, by definition, is Constitutional.

    W:dunno:T:dunno:F:dunno:?

    This is just false. Is your premise because something occurs in government today, it is automatically Constitutional? That it is impossible for us to ever be subject to anything unconstitutional? Are you implying that the government CANNOT do anything unconstitutional? An Executive Order establishing a compulsory national religion, for example, would then be Constitutional?

    If Congress or the President instituted a policy granting unlimited warrantless search and seizure of anyone's house, that would be constitutional?

    Why have checks and balances at all? Why have courts to decided constitutional issues if you believe that it is physically impossible that our government can go against the constitution.
     

    jsgolfman

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    If I am reading correctly, one of the points he is trying to make (based on other threads recently) is that it seems to be against the rules to speak ill of the Constitution. Let us not forget that there was quite a bit of opposition to it when it was proposed:

    Index - AntiFederalist Papers
     

    Hemingway

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    Well, maybe the Constitution isn't perfect--it was written by men, after all--but we could do a whole lot worse than following it to the letter.

    I'm sure the enlightened crowd will criticize this remark as being unsophisticated and overly simplistic, but for those that are so opposed to the U.S. Constitution, I would submit to you that there are approximately 191 countries in the world NOT operating under this terribly-flawed document. So, you've got a lot of options of where to live to get out from under such awful oppression.
     

    smoking357

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    Indy_Guy_77

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    So... things that "were" constitutional for X-number of years, then found to be un-constitutional...

    Where to things like that fit in?
     

    leftsock

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    So... things that "were" constitutional for X-number of years, then found to be un-constitutional...

    Where to things like that fit in?

    Hah, yeah, it's a big "sorry we f-d up for x-years and did some things that violated some of the founding principles of our country. We'll stop doing that now."

    :wrongdoor:
     

    smoking357

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    So... things that "were" constitutional for X-number of years, then found to be un-constitutional...

    Where to things like that fit in?

    Precisely my point. There is no fixed meaning to the Constitution. It's whatever they want it to mean, at any moment.

    The only way to win is not to play, and the greatest evil we committed was creating a powerful central government. Today was inevitable.
     

    TopDog

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    I'm just a simple man. I have seen enough to know that I don't want to live under Socialist's or Communist's. The current regime is Socialist motivated. I can read and only have a high school education, some college no degree. So perhaps I am not comprehending all the finer details but I know I don't like the direction this country has been headed in for a long time, regardless of which party was lording over us.

    It appears to me that the intent of the Constitution has not been followed, or even considered for that matter. I do know this. A lawyer can take the truth and twist it into something completely incomprehensible. Maybe that is all it boils down to. Who does the best job of manipulating.
     

    jsgolfman

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    George Washington said that government has no more right to put it's hand in my pocket, without my consent, than I have to put mine into yours. Yet, it's been done on a daily basis for over 200 years.
     

    Panama

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    smoking357

    If you were even half as intelligent as you think you are, you would be twice as smart as you truly are.

    Ever consider a hobby that does NOT include a keyboard?
    :D
     

    dburkhead

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    Perhaps, but I demur. Remember, my argument is that the Constitution allowed to occur everything we have, today. Actually, that's not much of an argument; it's nigh tautological. The Constitution didn't keep all this from occurring.

    The "Constitution allowed" to occur.

    Breaking the law is not the same thing as the law allowing something, not even if the people breaking the law get away with it.

    The law did not allow whoever killed Nicole Simpson and Ron Brown (I have my own suspicions there) to kill them. They were killed despite the law. And the killer got away with it despite the law.

    Despite what might be taught in some "Constitutional law" classes, it is the Constitution, not the courts, that, in the end, determines what is Constitutional. That a panel of nine political appointees could be pressured into not striking down Social Security doesn't make it any more "Constitutional" than it was before said pressure was applied.

    The final arbiter on whether something is Constitutional or not is, in the end, the Constitution itself and the words written within it.

    That folk in power have been able to break the law--the supreme law of the land--with impunity does not mean that the law is not broken.

    There are a whole host of unsolved crimes out there. That the people who committed them were never brought to trial does not make them "legal." Likewise there are plenty of people who were brought to trial and acquitted even though they actually committed the crime. Still doesn't make the crime legal.

    And the fact that the government has been routinely violating the Constitution does not make what they have done "Constitutional"

    BTW, you might want to look up just what "tautological" means in logic. Any first term logic textbook should do. A tautology is a statement that can never be false, no matter what actual events happen. Such statements are also utterly useless when it comes to conveying meaning. "It is raining or it is not raining" is always true. It also doesn't tell you whether you need an umbrella or not.
     

    dburkhead

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    Precisely my point. There is no fixed meaning to the Constitution. It's whatever they want it to mean, at any moment.

    The only way to win is not to play, and the greatest evil we committed was creating a powerful central government. Today was inevitable.

    Ah, so you consider the "failed state" idea (which is where the US was headed under the Articles of Confederation) to be an improvement?

    What you (and many other's) miss is that there, quite likely is no long term good solution. The idea that any government that starts "good" inevitably ends up bad is a very old one, going back to the earliest writings on the subject of politics.

    The Constitution is "good" in that it's done a better job than most in keeping things from going bad for a fairly long run (as such things go). No one has ever done better.

    Read that again: no one has ever done better. What in the world makes you think that you can?
     

    Indy_Guy_77

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    See, I'd argue that.

    That which is unconstitutional has always been unconstitutional.

    The main things that prompted my point would be slavery and women's suffrage.

    The allowing of slaves and the disallowing of women's right to vote have ALWAYS been unconstitutional...depsite being allowed.

    Because a group of people (Congress, Supremes, POTUS, etc) wish to allow a law to continue doesn't mean that it's somehow automatically "constitutional".

    Sometimes, the above groups of folks get things WRONG that have to be rectified later. Even though it was once thought to be right doesn't mean that it WAS right.

    It seems that you might be interjecting a little bit of "moral relativism" into the argument? IE, "no absolutes"?


    Precisely my point. There is no fixed meaning to the Constitution. It's whatever they want it to mean, at any moment.

    The only way to win is not to play, and the greatest evil we committed was creating a powerful central government. Today was inevitable.
     
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