To Mask or Not to Mask?

[JettaKnight]

It is a big deal from the little non-baseball throwing health dictator that has ran the country crazy for months. You are out in public. Either do what you tell others to do or dont. That is the big deal here.

Dude, you are wound too tight about this.


You could appreciate that he has a pragmatic, and not dogmatic, approach to this. You should appreciate that the health dictator has some common sense and realizes when masks are appropriate and when they are unnecessary.

 

[hoosierdoc]

I took my kids to the Waterpark yesterday. chairs could not be closer than 6 feet. even in family groups. absurdly stupid

 

[Ingomike]

Dude, you are wound too tight about this.


You could appreciate that he has a pragmatic, and not dogmatic, approach to this. You should appreciate that the health dictator has some common sense and realizes when masks are appropriate and when they are unnecessary.

No no he is not. If you want to scare people into government decreeing mask wear then you need to walk the walk. Sorry it is inconvenient for you...

 

[JettaKnight]

No no he is not. If you want to scare people into government decreeing mask wear then you need to walk the walk.

Gee, maybe it's not actually a scare tactic leading up to "something bigger". Maybe it's about common sense, epidemiology, and risk analysis.

Sorry it is inconvenient for you...

I'm not even sure what that means. Mask are inconvenient for everyone.





This is nothing more than "gotcha politics" whereby you look for minute inconsistencies in the person(s) instead of addressing the policy as a whole.



Your whole point has been that masks are not helpful. Well, here's a guy, sitting in the stands far, far from everyone except a woman he swaps spit with and, I presume, a man he doesn't, and he's not wearing a mask because it's obviously pointless. I.e. he's agreeing with you in this specific situation. So why complain about that?

By not wearing a mask in this situation he's showing he has common sense, which is a far better walk than a robot walk.

 

[T.Lex]

By not wearing a mask in this situation he's showing he has common sense, which is a far better walk than a robot walk.

 

[Ingomike]

Gee, maybe it's not actually a scare tactic leading up to "something bigger". Maybe it's about common sense, epidemiology, and risk analysis.




I'm not even sure what that means. Mask are inconvenient for everyone.





This is nothing more than "gotcha politics" whereby you look for minute inconsistencies in the person(s) instead of addressing the policy as a whole.



Your whole point has been that masks are not helpful. Well, here's a guy, sitting in the stands far, far from everyone except a woman he swaps spit with and, I presume, a man he doesn't, and he's not wearing a mask because it's obviously pointless. I.e. he's agreeing with you in this specific situation. So why complain about that?

By not wearing a mask in this situation he's showing he has common sense, which is a far better walk than a robot walk.

We live in the "optics matter" era. He failed in his optics on the issue he flip flopped on...

 

[idkfa]

Gee, maybe it's not actually a scare tactic leading up to "something bigger". Maybe it's about common sense, epidemiology, and risk analysis.

And maybe not -- since apparently it's an opinion game now, whereby whoever uses the most vague scientific terms and platitudes wins.

This is nothing more than "gotcha politics" whereby you look for minute inconsistencies in the person(s) instead of addressing the policy as a whole.

The onus of proving muzzles work is not on the people who refuse to be muzzled, and rather on those who want to muzzle and trample all over others' constitutionally protected rights.
Not only did they COMPLETELY FAIL to prove any of that -- they FAILED to create a consistent, reasonable, and enforceable policy.
Naturally, whatever abomination of a "policy" they managed to produce and are currently preaching, they themselves cannot adhere to.

Your whole point has been that masks are not helpful. Well, here's a guy, sitting in the stands far, far from everyone except a woman he swaps spit with and, I presume, a man he doesn't, and he's not wearing a mask because it's obviously pointless. I.e. he's agreeing with you in this specific situation. So why complain about that?

Aside from the "doing what you preach", for one, because his mask must be contaminated at this point, and he is breathing in the pathogens trapped on the outside of the mask.

By not wearing a mask in this situation he's showing he has common sense, which is a far better walk than a robot walk.

"Common sense" is to use, you know, scientific evidence. And they failed to produce any clinical evidence -- they just changed their mind 180 one day.
So no, he's not using common sense -- Fauci is a privileged hypocrite, plain and simple.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

This.
is why.
conservatives.
will never win.

ETA - the fact that we could consider starting our own little civil war over masks points to the idea that we (conservatives) may parse things down a little too thin, and allow our opponents to swoop in with broad general ideas that are easy for people “that just don’t care” (leftists) to win even while being in the minority.

Gotcha. If I may rephrase, you've identified "the one true Scottsman" effect. We pick down until we find a difference and fight about that and ignore the greater enemy.

THIS! Being vehemently, vocally anti-mask is an election loser. Period. Full stop.

6 months in jail for not wearing a ****ing mask?

Okay. You guys who are pro-mask. You feel it's justified? How confident are you that the science is solid enough to justify ****ing jail time?

Nope! Ditto primary enforcement, or any for that matter, of seat belt laws, and those are just infractions. Everything doesn't have to be a law.

Does this mean that after Monday were everyone will be wearing masks, the Covid-19 rate will go do zero within one week?

Since seat belts and air bags don't reduce traffic fatalities to zero, should we just do away with them?

Well, that's it. Voting against him no matter who the opponent is.

Not sure how old you are, but this is exactly the thought process that got us Bill Clinton as president.

It should mean that everything that's still closed should reopen Monday morning given that there's now a magical shield mandated protecting society.

Does this mean that after Monday were everyone will be wearing masks, the Covid-19 rate will go do zero within one week?

Not a 100% magical shield that reduces community spread to zero.... I wish it were, but it's not... in our state, and many others, re-opening (and IMO the protests) has the rate of spread (R0) above one... and judging from how rapidly the cases are rising, well above 1. The purpose of everyone possible masking up in public confined spaces or close quarters is so the we can stay open, not revert back towards lock down, so that kids can attend school here in a month, so that we can live life as close to normal as possible.

Who will enforce this idiocy. Shame on any LEO that would. Shame.

If I am out front of my house or driving down the road no mask do not **** with me. You will get your ass whipped. Period. This is just over the edge.

CM, the mandate is for indoor public spaces and outdoor public spaces where distancing is impossible. Doesn't apply to either situation you stated.

Plenty to be mad at Holcomb about these heavy handed tactics, but this is not that.

Is a mandate justified? Yes, I think it is - especially in the major population centers that cross county lines. The cities and the suburbs have a petri-dish quality, and these are the only tools we have.

Is six months in jail appropriate for violating the mandate? I think not. I think a citation or summons is the appropriate enforcement mechanism, and a small fine (payable through community service) is an appropriate consequence.

Paul, I'm "pro-mask" but I disagree. Especially at this point in time when 3-ply medical-grade, though marked non-medical, are widely available, and protect the wearer to a much higher degree than even the best fabric masks.

There is a difference between LEADING and DICTATING... which is obviously lost on Holcomb.

If it's gonna be that, the shutdown might as well have continued. I'm pissed about it too, but I'm still gonna go about my business.

Class B misdemeanor. I still can't get over that. Assholcomb hinted that it would not be rigorously enforced. But he still made it a class B misdemeanor for a reason. I think it's that if someone just flat out refuses to wear one, intermediate jail time is on the table. Why put it at that level otherwise?

I think that is a "charitable" way of looking at it... if someone goes all Karen-mode with a store manager about her "right" to not to wear a mask in a store... but at that point, felony trespass already applies making the new "law" completely unnecessary and unwise.

Stupid laws like this is the reason Eric Garner was killed. There they passed an ordinance against selling loose cigarettes and told the police to make enforcement a priority and they did. Mr. Garner did not want to comply and ended up dead.

THIS, exactly... and then the same folks who made the stupid law crucify the cops for enforcing it...

I'll have to disagree. We don't know to what extent masks help. I don't think they're as effective as social distancing. You might say, well, we can't really enforce social distancing, and I agree, that's hard. But we don't know how effective an alternative to social distancing a mask is. And to many people's point in the mask threads, there's no standards for these cloth masks. Even the few studies that have looked at cloth masks, it doesn't say anything about all cloth masks. Just the samples they had. Without standards, mandatory masks is just checking a box. Tell me how much it's going to help to justify even a citation, or summons. That mother****er could have even made it a class C. But no. ****ing class B. That's insane.

I think you are right... the "best" way to avoid it is to stay away from other people outside your household (and wash your hands). But that's a lockdown... BTDT and don't want another tee shirt. No one can tell you how effective a cloth mask, or for that matter, even a surgical mask or N95 mask is... other than relatively "some", "more" and the "most", in that order.

No one can say with certainty that adding "universal masking" will prevent a roll-back of the re-opening, or another lockdown, but there is a good amount of evidence, including the results in densely populated, mask-wearing countries, that indicate it's more than wishful thinkning.

I don't like it as a mandate. I also really don't think it does much to add to the effect, when you already had most retailers adding a mask policy and when you already required restaurant workers to wear masks.

I thought the original idea a couple of weeks ago to encourage it was the way to go.

I do have a bit of sympathy for the situation if I were the governor and the scientist came to me and said that we either need to increase masking, close more businesses, close schools, or we are going to see more deaths. He's given emergency powers to deal with things like this and I would not want to be in his shoes. Or at least I'd want to see where the cases went after a mask mandate before I went backwards with closures, like other states have

I'm sure I'll vote libertarian again though. For those who ask the governor candidate is Donald Rainwater

As far as my overall feeling about masks, no one sums it up better than Michael Osterholm does. We don't have hard science yet and we especially don't have hard science on which cloth masks to recommend. We should wear them voluntarily in my opinion. But the CDC claiming that masks alone will drive this epidemic into the ground seems like a statement without enough evidence. Anyway Osterholm says it better and he's certainly more qualified than I am to say it

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-per...oth-face-coverings-public-preventing-covid-19

Dusty, I agree... the CDC has failed us multiple times. First in parroting the ChiComm line that this doesn't spread human-to-human, then in failing on the production of the COVID test, then on lying about masks, and now completely overstating the effectiveness of masks, especially cloth masks.

We are still on defense against this virus, and as with any defense, depth is key.

BTW, I find you to be the most reasonable poster on this subject, and calm, even when attacked. Thank you!

Those cloth masks are like carrying a hi-point with a .22LR conversion...yeah, it *might* help when the time comes, but deep down you know it's really only for theatric effect.

I'm pro self-protection. A medical-quality disposable paper mask, or an industrial n95-type mask - used once and disposed of - is the best protection I have short of distance from the infected. You won't see me with a tee-shirt wrapped loosely around my face, or putting the same mask on over and over again. I have always been a compulsive hand-washer. My job allows for reasonable personal distance without much of an adjustment, so I have had to make only minor adjustments at work. I think it is only reasonable to take these precautions.

More importantly, you aren't likely to see me at all in public at all. The *best* defense I have is to stay away from people who might be sick, so I stay home as much as possible.

To get back to my earlier analogy...the Hi-Point is the only option we have...so, knowing that, I'm trying to do my best to avoid the fight altogether.

Ditto on the high-quality 3-ply surgical masks, now that they are widely available... though I believe they a poly, not paper.

Also, ditto on the carry analogy... if the only gun available for me to purchase and carry was a 22LR, or a .25, I'd still carry it because the gun you have is better than none at all, even if not the "perfect" carry gun.

Mask Mandate date in California: June 18th.https://www.npr.org/sections/corona...masks-mandatory-amid-rising-coronavirus-cases



California reported 12k new cases today, new record.:https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-warns-crisis-worsen-antibodies-225651259.html

Cloth masks help reduce the spread, but keeping a distance is more important/protective/etc.

I seem to remember something recently... that had literally thousands of 20-somethings standing shoulder to shoulder shouting at the top of their lungs... and now there's a huge spike of 20-somethings who are positive. And packed, 100% capacity bars. Nah, must be because the beaches and golf courses are open, lol!

About that multi-quote bug. It hasn’t worked correctly in a long time. It should automatically clear the multi-quote checkboxes, even across pages within a thread. It uses a cookie to store the id’s of the posts you quoted, and as long as they’re in the cookie, they’ll stay checked.

So when you submit your post, vbulletin should clear them from the cookie. I’ve verified that I can manually delete this cookie and it does clear all the multi-quotes. For some reason, they’re not getting cleared. I haven’t looked on my JavaScript debugger to see if there’s some kind of error preventing that code from executing. But I suspect that it’s supposed to get cleared in the PHP code the server is running, and not JavaScript on the page.

For what it’s worth. Maybe TexKev might find that useful.

Thanks, Jamil... it never worked for me so I copy/paste.

I can see this getting ugly.

Getting? I think it's already been got, lol!

So we use the flu as an emergency to start all this insanity.

I already know the answer. Paul sees his world and I see mine. We all have an opinion but seriously people.......

Yeah, folks all over the place NOT keeping calm. Both sides.

Uhhh, odor (fart) is an individual molecule. Wuvid is composed of hundreds of molecules. Odor molecule is smaller than virus by 100x to 1000x. I'll wager you can smell odors even in an N95

Read sometime back that there are certain odors that are used to check N95 mask fitment... if you can smell them, your mask has gaps. Farts weren't on the list, but if I get ahold of any N95s, I'll fart test them and report back.

 

[paintman]

https://www.wishtv.com/news/coronav...-over-as-coronavirus-cases-surpass-4-million/

here we go. Experts like Bill gates are saying we need to shut the country down and start over. to them

 

[Trigger Time]

Has Todd Rokita given an opinion on Holcomb's mask order?

He is lockstep with the party so I dont expect one

 

[Trigger Time]

https://www.wishtv.com/news/coronav...-over-as-coronavirus-cases-surpass-4-million/

here we go. Experts like Bill gates are saying we need to shut the country down and start over. to them

Yeah they failed to tank the country the first time around with this sham so now they want a second chance. I'm with you, **** them. If they shut us down again the gloves are coming off. I wont be nice

 

[paintman]

This is why I’m so anti mask. It started with shutting down for two weeks. Then 3 and now 4 months. Now we need to wear panties on our face. Oh wait nope start over.
it’s like watching kids play a game. Just make stuff up as you go.

 

[dusty88]

https://www.wishtv.com/news/coronav...-over-as-coronavirus-cases-surpass-4-million/

here we go. Experts like Bill gates are saying we need to shut the country down and start over. to them

I think the actual letter was signed by public health docs (MDs with MPH), epidemiologists, virologists, etc not Bill Gates. One of their points I really agree with: we squandered the shutdowns by being unable or unwilling to get testing ready. States like Indiana were doing kind of OK a month ago and testing turnaround was quick. Some states had their cases even lower and were controlling any new outbreaks. But once cases exploded in a few areas, testing supplies are strained and now even the lower-case states can't identify and manage their outbreaks as well. So in otherwords, we didn't take benefit of the shutdown (whether any of us agreed with them or not)

As far as what to do now, I won't even debate closures. The political will for cooperation has been destroyed. Trump minimized this pandemic and can't salvage support now. As for those public health docs, I think they are truly knowledgeable. But several of them outright ridiculed "open it" protesters right down to their politics. Then they supported the BLM protests (some did emphasize distance and masking, but that was drowned out by the support). Point is, there is no leader or group that has both credibility and admiration.

So now we can look out for ourselves and our community. I want to see community transmission stay down for the sake of healthcare facilities, workers, and anyone who ends up needing healthcare for Covid or otherwise.

I also think it's wise to continue to expect the unexpected. Maybe some states will finally close their interstates if they locally have a populace that really wants to control cases. We also may continue to see various supply problems or social unrest.

 

[WWalker]

https://publicintegrity.org/health/...ies-must-take-coronavirus-aggressive-efforts/

 

[dusty88]

Michael Osterholm has IMO retained credibility by being measured and not extreme with his recommendations. I also haven't seem him delve into politics (other than criticizing or praising pandemic-specific responses)

He has a weekly podcast and he also said he thinks the upper midwest is at risk of an accelerating outbreak.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/covid-19/podcasts-webinars

 

[foszoe]

Well, it was a joke so...

So you're saying I was right?!?

 

[ghuns]

https://www.wishtv.com/news/coronav...-over-as-coronavirus-cases-surpass-4-million/

here we go. Experts like Bill gates are saying we need to shut the country down and start over. to them

Love this...

“We’re already starting to see some plateauing in these critical four states that have suffered under the last four weeks — so Texas, California, Arizona and Florida, those major metros and throughout their counties.” Birx said on NBC’s “Today” show.


Birx compared what’s been going on in these states to the outbreak in New York in the spring, adding “it’s very serious and it’s very real.”

Fine, let's compare what's going on in California to New York. Cali just passed New York in the number of cases. The purveyors of panic porn couldn't write the headlines fast enough. Of course Cali has over double the population of New York, but nevermind that. And nevermind that with the same number of cases, Cali has 75% fewer deaths.

 

[BigRed]

Something about this whole event has seemed "off" since the beginning.

At around 40 minutes, it is a little long. Nevertheless, if you have an attention span longer than the typical teenager, it is well worth the watch.

Global Health Mafia Protection Racket



[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UqvQqorOENI[/video]

 

[BugI02]

...
Your whole point has been that masks are not helpful. Well, here's a guy, sitting in the stands far, far from everyone except a woman he swaps spit with and, I presume, a man he doesn't, and he's not wearing a mask because it's obviously pointless. I.e. he's agreeing with you in this specific situation. So why complain about that?

By not wearing a mask in this situation he's showing he has common sense, which is a far better walk than a robot walk.

Now if only my lords and masters would grant the little people the same privilege, that of deciding for ourselves when wearing a mask makes sense

Why is it that 'we can't convince enough people to do what we think they should' is more likely to herald a resort to coercion rather than an introspective re-examination of what is being asked?

 

[JettaKnight]

Why is it that 'we can't convince enough people to do what we think they should' is more likely to herald a resort to coercion rather than an introspective re-examination of what is being asked?

You've been on INGO long enough to know the answer to that question.