Trainers: Do you restrict how students can carry in your classes?

[Jackson]

A thread in the women's forum got me thinking about carry methods and how they need to be incorporated in our training. I've been to a few classes that significantly restrict how a student can carry during drills. Most classes don't allow off-body carry. Most don't allow shoulder holsters or ankle rigs. Some don't allow appendix carry or certain kinds of holsters (like the Serpa).

So this question is for the trainers: Do you restrict how students can carry? If so, what restrictions do you place on the students? Will you work to accomodate studnets with unconventional or off-body carry methods in your classes? If so, how do you accomodate them? What do you have to change about the class to make it work and do it safely.

For others, do you think it is a good thing or bad thing that trainers make such restrictions? Do you think trainers have a responsibility to work with students on the methods they've chosen for carry? Is it better to push them in to the methods the instructors prefer or are easier for class, and let them work the rest out at home?

 

[ModernGunner]

Since the vast majority of the training I do is 'individual' and not a 'class', I discuss carry methods well in advance of any 'live fire' training. After the trainee chooses their preferred carry (yes, even the 'evil' Serpa CQC! ) we train until the trainee is comfortable with that method.

Similarly, beyond the basic NRA class (for which the NRA has a set of requirements), I hold no 'beginner, intermediate, advance' class divisions. It's been my experience (so far) that folks want to know what to do if 'Mr. Scumbag' walks into that theater, school, food court, parking lot, etc. and decides to commit a terrorist act. I have NO idea how one would, at that moment, differentiate between being a 'beginning' or 'advanced' trainee.

 

[Jackson]

Since the vast majority of the training I do is 'individual' and not a 'class', I discuss carry methods well in advance of any 'live fire' training. After the trainee chooses their preferred carry (yes, even the 'evil' Serpa CQC! ) we train until the trainee is comfortable with that method.

Similarly, beyond the basic NRA class (for which the NRA has a set of requirements), I hold no 'beginner, intermediate, advance' class divisions. It's been my experience (so far) that folks want to know what to do if 'Mr. Scumbag' walks into that theater, school, food court, parking lot, etc. and decides to commit a terrorist act. I have NO idea how one would, at that moment, differentiate between being a 'beginning' or 'advanced' trainee.

Are most of your classes or training sessions based on the NRA curriculum? What else do you teach?

 

[sjstill]

Interesting question, Jackson.

I teach mostly NRA Basic pistol, but can also do Personal Protection in the Home. No real holster work in either, but I would absolutely NOT allow SOB holsters. I've caught flak for opining that SOB is the worst possible way to carry a pistol, but I stand by that.

 

[VERT]

I have to agree with SOB holsters not being ideal. Shoulder holsters and cross draw holsters while serving a specific purpose are pretty much impossible to deal with in a square range class situation. I have actually used a pocket holster for part of a class before. Ankle holsters, why not? I have no problem with the idea of people using a purse holster in a class.

Edit: Interestingly enough as much hatred as NRA training classes garner on the interwebs, the NRA PPOTH course is the only one that I have personally seen that addresses the issues associated with pocket and purse carry.

 

[cedartop]

[h=2]Trainers: Do you restrict how students can carry in your classes?[/h]
Yes. They have to be safe. Yes, I am the final arbiter of what is safe.

 

[VERT]

Trainers: Do you restrict how students can carry in your classes?


Yes. They have to be safe. Yes, I am the final arbiter of what is safe.

Man what a ball buster!

 

[Glock21]

Yes - especially in a Level I Handgun Class.

Level II - we open it up to other options.

Once students have a mastery of proper gun handling and muzzle consciousness, then we can move to more difficult methods of draw.

...and in agreement with what Michael said: I can't have anyone on the line drawing from a shoulder holster and covering the person next to them. We start with a holster somewhere on the belt, and grow it out to other options with the student' skills.

If I'm teaching one-on-one, I may alter that "law" and work with the student's chosen carry method.

 

[Coach]

I think Cedartop covered it largely.

If we cannot do it safely on the range how can that method of carry be safe out in the real world? I would be more likely to restrict other things than types of holsters and holster position. Appendix is fine, Serpa is fine it the Indian not that arrow that matters. I do not think it is acceptable for a .22 to be used for defensive purposes and will not allow it in a defensive pistol class. My reasoning is that if I allow it I am actually putting my stamp of approval on it, and I am not going to do that. Everyone can make their own decisions but I am not going to be a part of that situation.

 

[gregkl]

For others, do you think it is a good thing or bad thing that trainers make such restrictions? Do you think trainers have a responsibility to work with students on the methods they've chosen for carry? Is it better to push them in to the methods the instructors prefer or are easier for class, and let them work the rest out at home?

I'll chime in on this part. I think it's a good thing that trainers restrict certain kinds of firearm handling in a group class. In all of the classes I have attended it never fails; there is a student that has to be watched closely to keep the rest of the class safe. Improper firearm handling, not able to hear range commands, failures to follow basic safety checks, etc. I am actually impressed at how calm the instructors remain. Plus, you have to follow the rules of the particular range the class is being taught at. I really don't want to be standing to the left of a right handed shooter as he draws his Dirty Harry Model 29 out of his shoulder rig and sweeps me 50 times during a class.

Individual instruction? Whatever the trainer and student want to do is fine by me.

 

[rhino]

Trainers: Do you restrict how students can carry in your classes?


Yes. They have to be safe. Yes, I am the final arbiter of what is safe.

I share this as my only hard and fast rule. To be safe, I expect some kind of holster that covers the trigger guard, regardless of how or where it is worn. I expect the user to be able to draw/present the firearm without point it at their body parts or anyone else's. The same goes for reholstering. In most classes, we strongly recommend a belt or IWB holster somewhere on the strong side. Appendix is fine and behind the hip is fine.

I'll work with someone to find a draw/presentation for their carry method that is both safe and as efficient as possible. If that person is unable or willing to follow that instruction, then we'll have to either switch them to belt/IWB carry, or they can choose to not participate.

For example, if someone has a carry method that could raise some additional safety issues, we'll need to talk about it and perhaps make accommodations. For instance, any right hander who chooses to use a fanny pack worn in front is going to be on the left end of the line every time.

 

[HardTargetFirearms]

We don't restrict the carry methods in our classes. And here is why:

First, we have our classes tiered in such a way that in the Basic Handgun and Marksmanship class, they are not even working from a holster. The guns are on barrels all day while we do the very basic work. After that class, in our Defensive Handgun classes, we maintain a really good student to instructor ratio (normally about 3:1 of 4:1) as we teach those holster skills. In those classes we have the ability to group people together based on skills, carry methods, et...and then assign instructors to them to work through the logistics of off body carry, appendix, you name it. We don't discourage carry methods...that's not our job. Our job is to teach the students the pros and cons of a given method, educate them and let them make their own informed decision. Obviously safety is something we hit constantly during this process and in the end, students who who utilize those non-traiditonal carry methods almost always make changes to their gear/gun to improve things. There are exceptions however.

The more advanced classes are a moot point here since I have never seen an advanced student carry a gun in a non-conventional way in an advanced class-setting. The shooters who make it that far simply know how to carry a gun safely, properly and effectively. They know what set-up is best for them. They have those fundamentals in place.

I will say the one things we really hate to see are shoulder rigs. Some people love them but from a safety standpoint it's a nightmare on the range. Occasionally a student will show up with one. We move them to whatever end of the line is the safest, dedicate an instructor to that person and then basically let them learn throughout the course of that day why they don't want a shoulder rig anymore. And given the nature of tactical training, that becomes pretty self-evident to them pretty fast.

 

[Expatriated]

I prefer to be able to tell people that they have to come to class as they carry every day. If they are unsafe in that way, be it a shoulder holster or a thigh rig, they are unsafe period. Carry method doesn't matter. A guy that carries a gun in a purse may be safer than a guy carrying his gun his duty rigged Sam Brown. As with most other things in my methods, I consider the brain more important than the equipment.

However, when I go overseas to train people for an assignment, anything goes. I've seen enough to fill a whole page of crazy stuff. Browning Hi-Power's in pockets. Ancient Jericho's tucked in a belt wrapped around the outside of a jacket that falls on the ground every 10 minutes. A guy in a track suit for a 3 day class with no holster--just carried it in his hand the entire time wherever he went. You name it.

I've learned to roll with anything over the years. I figure it makes me a better instructor. If I can operate in that environment, I can certainly adapt to whatever's going on at Marion Co Fish and Game. Or the downrange photographer that gets people wound up. I was at a range once overseas where an old man and his cattle refused to get off the range. The local police gave up and just shot around him. If we didn't keep an eye on it, kids would try to run up when we were shooting and take the brass off the ground as soon as it landed. I've seen demos in another country where each lane had 2 shooters on it. When one was shooting, the other was laying down in front of the target. Then they would reverse. It was explained to me that it built up trust in the unit. I took lots of pics during this hoping to catch a REALLY good anecdote for the future but no one ever got shot.

Once you do a few years in that environment, Jay taking some pictures between spaced out targets seems pretty benign

On a related point, I believe if you carry a back-up weapon, you need to train with that so if it's on your ankle, you need to go to a school that allows that.

 

[sadclownwp]

If I am teaching an NRA class, I have to go by NRA guidelines. If I am doing personal lessons, I prefer them to carry as they would everyday.

 

[Latewatch]

I do restrict to strong side carry for basic level defensive classes except for private instruction. Any place from appendix to behind the hip, including pocket carry, is fine with a proper holster. In intermediate classes I encourage students to use a strong side holster but I also encourage them to bring other holsters that they carry with such as ankle holsters, fanny packs, purses, etc. As was stated earlier, advanced level classes are usually a moot point because most will be using a strong side holster anyway.