Training and Carry Methods for Beretta 92fs and PX4 Storm

[FireBirdDS]

I would like to hear a discussion and input from you folks on INGO who own and operate Berettas as your choice for your concealed carry platform. The 92fs and PX4 series appear to follow the same design philosophy with the overall shape of the slide, double action trigger and safety switch function. I would like to hear discussion and input regarding preferred carry methods for the two platforms:

· Condition 1: Chamber loaded, hammer cocked, safety off
· Condition 2: Chamber loaded, hammer uncocked by safety on
· Condition 3: Chamber empty, magazine loaded, safety off
· Condition 4: Chamber empty, magazine loaded, safety on

Condition 1 is obviously the preferred method for speed and accuracy. It allows going from holster to rounds on target with a lighter trigger pull for first shot accuracy, but with increased risk of an accidental discharge, is it safe enough to carry?

Condition 2 is safer and almost as ready. The double action will have more pounds to break leading to a possible decrease in overall first shot accuracy. A single step of disengaging the safety to ready the weapon, but can it be done intuitively in high-stress active shooter situations when fine motor skills are wiped out? (and they will be)
This is especially a concern with the PX4 safety switch as it is smoother and flatter than the 92fs safety switch. The 92fs safety switch is far easier to single-handedly disengage.

Condition 3 is equally safer, again requiring only a single step to ready the weapon for action. Also it affords a lighter initial trigger pull for increased first shot accuracy. Regular training needed to program one’s self to automatically rack the slide upon drawing from the holster, and is less of a fine motor skill as having to disengage the safety switch.

Condition 4 is obviously the “safest” as far as being as far away from an accidental discharge as possible, but requires two steps to ready the weapon in that the safety must first be disengaged and then the slide racked. Either one of which could be easily forgotten under high stress unless one trains with this carry condition RELIGIOUSLY!


The slide on both the 92fs and PX4 do not quite have as much side surface area as other platforms (1911, XD/XDM, Glock, M&P, etc.). There is a significant slope on the sides leaving only about 1/4-3/8” wide of any textured grooves in which to grab. This is further complicated by the presence of the safety switch on the rear thus cluttering the rear of the slide. During a slide racking action under stress such as readying the weapon from condition 3 or 4 or clearing a type 1 or 2 malfunction I could easily see the safety switch being inadvertently manipulated. There are basically 2 methods of racking the slide:

· Grabbing the rear of the slide between the thumb and index finger (the harder of the two without a strong thumb and index)
· Top overhand, grabbing the slide with the palm and most or all of the fingers . (my preferred method with my XD by far as it guarantees no finger slippage under stress and is the most “cave man” action under stress)

The top overhand method could avoid unwanted manipulation of the safety by grabbing the front of the slide, however at the risk of blocking the ejector port when clearing a malfunction.

How do you train with this platform to overcome these possible issues? Or are they even issues at all? (to those with experience)

 

[rhino]

The standard for carrying any double action pistol is chamber loaded, decocked, safety off (if it has one). Whether you choose to use the safety or not, the hammer should be decocked if the gun is holstered.

There are other ways to rack the slide for double action pistols with ambidextrous, slide-mounted safeties/decockers. One that works well goes by a couple of names, but when I learned it, the instructor referred to it as the "L.A. claw" or "L.A. hook" indicating it had been developed by the Los Angeles PD for use with their Beretta 92 and Smith & Wesson 5906 pistols. It's a variant of a "slingshot" method where you reach from behind the slide and hook the safety levers with your index and middle fingers of your support hand. This allows you to rack the slide while at the same time making sure the safety/decock levers are in the "up" position where they need to be for the gun to fire.

 

[FireBirdDS]

The standard for carrying any double action pistol is chamber loaded, decocked, safety off (if it has one).

I overlooked that one. After de-cocking the hammer by engaging the safety, the safety can be disengaged again. DUH!

There are other ways to rack the slide for double action pistols with ambidextrous, slide-mounted safeties/decockers. One that works well goes by a couple of names, but when I learned it, the instructor referred to it as the "L.A. claw" or "L.A. hook" indicating it had been developed by the Los Angeles PD for use with their Beretta 92 and Smith & Wesson 5906 pistols. It's a variant of a "slingshot" method where you reach from behind the slide and hook the safety levers with your index and middle fingers of your support hand. This allows you to rack the slide while at the same time making sure the safety/decock levers are in the "up" position where they need to be for the gun to fire.

That still sounds like a fine motor skill that could be lost under high stress. It theoretically would work with the 92fs having a safety switch to "hook" around, but not the flatter PX4 safety switch so much

 

[indykid]

The PX4 that I carry is the G model, decock only, no safety, so hammer down for double action first pull, chamber is loaded.

I do practice now and then cocking the hammer as I draw for a single action first pull.

 

[Bigtanker]

I would pick the one YOU feel safest with. Training with each, knowing the saftey features of your gun and what ever you feel you can do best. You can get the opinions first hand by finding somebody that knows the platform you are using and have them go over what they feel the best way to carry.

But the final choice is yours. What ever the balance of speed vs. saftey you prefer.

As Rhino pointed out, the "standard" way to carry loaded chamber, hammer down, saftey off for your 92. Maybe start there. But no matter what you chose, train and practice it until it is second nature.

 

[46321]

I carry the PX4 Type D (DAO). It's a longer trigger pull for each shot, but with no external safety or decocker, drawing is never a problem and the design eliminates the need to incorporate disengaging the safety into your training.

 

[Aaron1776]

:

· Condition 1: Chamber loaded, hammer cocked, safety off
· Condition 2: Chamber loaded, hammer uncocked by safety on
· Condition 3: Chamber empty, magazine loaded, safety off
· Condition 4: Chamber empty, magazine loaded, safety on

The only condition that is advised is highlighted in blue. Condition one, is not advised....for some reason that I'm not entirely sure of? Conditions 3 and 4 are down right unsafe.

Why is it unsafe? Because if you are carrying a gun and ever need to get to your gun, it will be totally useless to you. You're never going to have time to get the gun out AND rack the slide AND fire. You've got time for two out of the three at best. Plus, what if your other hand is pre-occupied? Given the close nature of self-defense shootings, this is very likely. You could be holding a child, dragging your wife out of the way, or, even more likely, blocking your attacker with your support arm.

Coming from a guy who used to carry a 92fs, Beretta simply doesn't understand how to build a fighting pistol. They get their sales from the fact that they're an extremely old firearms company, have a lot of prestige, and were able to convinced a bunch of dumb military brass to adopt a pistol for political purposes. What does this mean?

Well this means that there aren't any good options around the problems you are describing. The only method I know that worked OK for me was to grab the slide over hand (like on a normal platform), put my thumb under the decocker, and rack. Unfortunately this can also end up with your hand getting bitten if you're not careful.

Since I know that you carry an XD, I'm assuming this post is for someone in your life who has made a less than optimal pistol choice.

That being said, the beretta 9mms have been a case study in the truism that "Any gun will do if you will do". Sucky platform. Yet our guys overseas perform remarkably well with it, and, if I had to carry it, I know I could make it work.

 

[blueboxer]

The only condition that is advised is highlighted in blue. Condition one, is not advised....for some reason that I'm not entirely sure of? Conditions 3 and 4 are down right unsafe.

Why is it unsafe? Because if you are carrying a gun and ever need to get to your gun, it will be totally useless to you. You're never going to have time to get the gun out AND rack the slide AND fire. You've got time for two out of the three at best. Plus, what if your other hand is pre-occupied? Given the close nature of self-defense shootings, this is very likely. You could be holding a child, dragging your wife out of the way, or, even more likely, blocking your attacker with your support arm.

Coming from a guy who used to carry a 92fs, Beretta simply doesn't understand how to build a fighting pistol. They get their sales from the fact that they're an extremely old firearms company, have a lot of prestige, and were able to convinced a bunch of dumb military brass to adopt a pistol for political purposes. What does this mean?

Well this means that there aren't any good options around the problems you are describing. The only method I know that worked OK for me was to grab the slide over hand (like on a normal platform), put my thumb under the decocker, and rack. Unfortunately this can also end up with your hand getting bitten if you're not careful.

Since I know that you carry an XD, I'm assuming this post is for someone in your life who has made a less than optimal pistol choice.

That being said, the beretta 9mms have been a case study in the truism that "Any gun will do if you will do". Sucky platform. Yet our guys overseas perform remarkably well with it, and, if I had to carry it, I know I could make it work.

I would like to hear a discussion and input from you folks on INGO who own and operate Berettas as your choice for your concealed carry platform. The 92fs and PX4 series appear to follow the same design philosophy with the overall shape of the slide, double action trigger and safety switch function. I would like to hear discussion and input regarding preferred carry methods for the two platforms:

· Condition 1: Chamber loaded, hammer cocked, safety off
· Condition 2: Chamber loaded, hammer uncocked by safety on
· Condition 3: Chamber empty, magazine loaded, safety off
· Condition 4: Chamber empty, magazine loaded, safety on

Agreed Aaron, with the addition that condition 1 here is essentially condition zero, and I would never recommend it! Carrying a 92 or PX4 with a chambered round, the hammer cocked and the safety off is a horrible, horrible idea. If a round is chambered and the gun is in single action mode, it should be on safe. No exceptions.

 

[FireBirdDS]

Since I know that you carry an XD, I'm assuming this post is for someone in your life who has made a less than optimal pistol choice.

You are very correct sir. Also the person in question has chosen what I've defined as "condition 4" as his preferred carry method. (deep concealed, I might add) His "caution" from chambering a round comes not from a fear of an accidental discharge while carrying, but in an accidental discharge while unchambering the round while at home.

Agreed Aaron, with the addition that condition 1 here is essentially condition zero, and I would never recommend it! Carrying a 92 or PX4 with a chambered round, the hammer cocked and the safety off is a horrible, horrible idea. If a round is chambered and the gun is in single action mode, it should be on safe. No exceptions.

I stand corrected. I wouldn't recommend carrying it either, but I threw it out there nonetheless since it is a carry "condition" (albeit not a very smart one).

 

[PX4me]

Condition 2.

Flicking the safety off during draw is nothing if you practice it enough.

 

[blueboxer]

Condition 2.

Flicking the safety off during draw is nothing if you practice it enough.

This

 

[Dewidmt]

I carried one for years as my main armament in the USAF...we carried loaded, hammer down, safety off. Just draw and fire. I have always liked the Berettas...accurate, light and reliable. I still have a 92FS and a 92G in my personal collection.

 

[Aaron1776]

Agreed Aaron, with the addition that condition 1 here is essentially condition zero, and I would never recommend it! Carrying a 92 or PX4 with a chambered round, the hammer cocked and the safety off is a horrible, horrible idea. If a round is chambered and the gun is in single action mode, it should be on safe. No exceptions.

You are very correct sir. Also the person in question has chosen what I've defined as "condition 4" as his preferred carry method. (deep concealed, I might add) His "caution" from chambering a round comes not from a fear of an accidental discharge while carrying, but in an accidental discharge while unchambering the round while at home.



I stand corrected. I wouldn't recommend carrying it either, but I threw it out there nonetheless since it is a carry "condition" (albeit not a very smart one).

Yeah I really should have put that in purple. lol

I'll do that now.

This is what amuses me about people who say that they don't believe that modern firearms should have manual safeties.......and then they take their glock or M&P and lighten the trigger to sub 5lbs

Right.

I'll see you in my ER somtime....

 

[FireBirdDS]

I'll see you in my ER somtime....

Hopefully not! We shall see on Monday, won't we?

 

[rvb]

[STRIKE]
Condition 1: Chamber loaded, hammer cocked, safety off
· Condition 2: Chamber loaded, hammer uncocked by safety on
· Condition 3: Chamber empty, magazine loaded, safety off
· Condition 4: Chamber empty, magazine loaded, safety on
[/STRIKE]

none of these!

chambered, hammer down, safety off.

The slide on both the 92fs and PX4 do not quite have as much side surface area as other platforms .... This is further complicated by the presence of the safety switch on the rear thus cluttering the rear of the slide.

The slide safety on the FS and std PX4 is a real bummer. It's a shame because otherwise the 92 platform is one of the best on the market, imo. The Px4 is gaining a great reputation as well. I competed with a 92 for many years, and am super familiar with it. I would strongly recommend the PX4 over the 92FS for carry. You can convert the safety on a PX4 into a "G" configuration, which is a decocker-only, no safety. You can also find used "G" model 92s, but they are no longer in production (the reason I switched to glock). On a "G" model, when you press the lever, the gun decocks but then the lever springs back to the off position. The manual of arms becomes very similar to a P226, for example. The benefit is that if you rack the slide for any reason (reloads/malfunction/etc) and inadvertently engage the safety/decocker lever, the lever will spring back up by itself and the gun will still be ready to fire. It will be in a double-action condition, but the safety will never inadvertantly be on.

I prefer to work the slide on autos with my thumb/index finger (aka "slingshot" method) for many reasons, but on the berettas I think it's definitely the way to go since there is so little to grab on to, and it beats using only the tips only of your weaker fingers.

On FS-style safeties, if that is what you choose to use, you can also slingshot by gripping the slide directly from the rear, with your thumb and index finger UNDER the safety, greatly reducing the chance of inadvertently engaging the safety. This is slightly different than what rhino discribes (if I recall the LAPD method correctly) as they are still coming from the top, but "hooking" fingers under the levers; essentially pulling UP on the levers while working the slide. I think it's a less effective method as it's still easy to inadvertently move the levers down when releasing the slide and it begins moving forward under your hand. My method of coming behind and under the levers never gives the opportunity to pull the levers down.

although just because there is a way to work FS style safeties, it's still not optimal. Too easy to accidently bump the safety on while in the holster and draw to a dead trigger, for instance. a used 92G or a PX4 (factory G or converted to G) is the way to go, imo.

ps. It still breaks my heart beretta no longer makes 92Gs. That configuration made one of the most reliable/durable pistols made quite usable in a defensive roll. I ended up switching to glock over it because I refused to even compete with, yet alone carry, an FS (and I wouldn't pay the prices used samples were fetching).

-rvb