Training....What training?!?

[cce1302]

Yes, I'm a professional instructor, but for the record, I do not believe that training should be mandatory to own or carry a gun (or for any other Constitutional right).

I encourage all gun owners to take it upon themselves to seek out quality training, but anything government mandated would be terrible training and simply used as a barrier to certain classes of people owning or carrying guns.

Shay, I can't rep you because I have to spread the love, but I agree 100% with both your posts on this thread and your sense of humor.

 

[G McBride]

I just received my Utah permit which required that I take a four hour safety training course but did not require us to shoot a handgun at all. We were instructed on basic pistol safety and handling but we were not required to take any tests or to shoot any weapons.

If Indiana would just require that we sit through a training/lecturing course to get a permit, many other States would then honor our permits in their state. The money that I spent to get the Utah permit could have been spent in Indian for the same type of National recognition of our permits. Maybe we could have an Indiana Only and a Honored in other States LCTH.

 

[Lars]

Yes, I'm a professional instructor, but for the record, I do not believe that training should be mandatory to own or carry a gun (or for any other Constitutional right).

I encourage all gun owners to take it upon themselves to seek out quality training, but anything government mandated would be terrible training and simply used as a barrier to certain classes of people owning or carrying guns.

I couldn't agree more and couldn't have said it better.

 

[obijohn]

hang on kids. for this once, i completely agree with shay. carry on.

 

[NateIU10]

I just received my Utah permit which required that I take a four hour safety training course but did not require us to shoot a handgun at all. We were instructed on basic pistol safety and handling but we were not required to take any tests or to shoot any weapons.

If Indiana would just require that we sit through a training/lecturing course to get a permit, many other States would then honor our permits in their state. The money that I spent to get the Utah permit could have been spent in Indian for the same type of National recognition of our permits. Maybe we could have an Indiana Only and a Honored in other States LCTH.

Yes, let's go backwards and allow them to require a class. Hell, I could barely afford the $125 for the lifetime when I got it. Between class and money, it would've taken me a while to get it.

Now, if they want to have an online, ungraded 10 question test and have that count towards a training requirement for other states, i THINK I could support that

 

[rhino]

Anyone who can't find some kind of instruction to meet their needs in Indiana isn't really trying to do so. It isn't going to be free in terms of dollars or time, but why should it be? There are options ranging from basic NRA safety classes that are close to being free to kicking doors/tossing flashbangs for several hundreds of dollars per day. There are a variety of different instructors with different repertoires and personalities.

I'm not sure I understand the original poster's surprise that training isn't available from a police agency. I'm suprised that someone would think that 1) they would be capable of doing it; and 2) that it wouldn't be more expensive that private sector training even if it was available.

I'm not in the mood to recommend things to people anymore. If someone wants to get instruction, they will find it if they are motivated. If they don't want it or don't feel they need it, it's their choice. Some might be right.

 

[Glockster]

Anyone who can't find some kind of instruction to meet their needs in Indiana isn't really trying to do so. It isn't going to be free in terms of dollars or time, but why should it be? There are options ranging from basic NRA safety classes that are close to being free to kicking doors/tossing flashbangs for several hundreds of dollars per day. There are a variety of different instructors with different repertoires and personalities.

I'm not sure I understand the original poster's surprise that training isn't available from a police agency. I'm suprised that someone would think that 1) they would be capable of doing it; and 2) that it wouldn't be more expensive that private sector training even if it was available.

I'm not in the mood to recommend things to people anymore. If someone wants to get instruction, they will find it if they are motivated. If they don't want it or don't feel they need it, it's their choice. Some might be right.

I am motivated and I am finding it, slowly. I'm just surprised its not more readily available for something as serious as carrying a handgun. Its too bad you've become so jaded you don't care to share your experience anymore. Why bother reading the forum?

 

[ATM]

Rhino does share his considerable experience with those who want it. Some folks just aren't interested.

 

[Pami]

FWIW...

A few days ago I added a section to the Indiana Gun FAQs that listed several of the training companies that have been mentioned on this site. I just did a quick search, so I'm sure I missed some, but most of the companies I listed offer classes in or very near Indiana. They cover a wide range of topics from "ZOMG! I just bought my first gun, now what??" to "I'm a training junkie, and I'm here to learn more!" I know there are even more opportunities (I didn't even take the time to look up all the places that host the NRA classes), so this is a pretty small list. Here's the snippet from the FAQ:

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...16185-indiana_gun_faqs_sticky.html#post187172

Where do I get training?
Check out the Tactics & Training forum. There are a lot of options as far as training goes: some are good and others are not so good. If you are completely new to guns, or even new to just handguns or just long guns, it is strongly recommended that you at least check out a NRA Basic class. From there you can move on to use-specific types of training, such as defensive pistol training by Tactical Response, TDI, Gunsite, etc. Some schools offer trainings on shooting sports in addition to their defensive courses, like our own ACT. For someone new to shooting long guns, the Appleseed program is an excellent source of training as well. There are a lot of options for just about everything; take advantage of as many opportunities as you can! A single well-placed round is a lot more effective than a magazine of rounds that miss.

A couple of links to some training companies we've discussed in threads on this forum (in no particular order)

Adaptive Consulting & Training
Dignitary Protection Group, LLC (DPG) - Home
Tactical Response
MODERN COMBATIVE SYSTEMS - Self Defense Training for Civilians, Military and Law Enforcement Agencies - Open Hand, Stick, Knife and Pistol
MDFI - Home
Gunsite- NRA firearms training pistol carbine rifle
Tactical Defense Institute
Defense Training International, Inc.
E.A.G. Tactical
Front Sight Firearms Training Institute
Suarez International USA, Inc.
Realistic and Practical Firearms Training

Just remember when looking for a company to train with that what you take away from the class depends most on the open mind you take to it. Even the same course offered by the same instructor at the same range by the same company may give you something different just based on how receptive you were to the material and/or how your classmates received the material. Not all classmates are the same; not all instructors are the same; not all courses are the same; and not every company is the same!

 

[Pami]

I'm really torn on this whole issue. I agree with Scutter that requiring something could really open a can of worms but Shay makes sense too. After all, we require testing to get a driver's license for four years. I wonder if the FF's would have addressed automobiles in the Constitution if they had existed during their time. Would their be a clause stating that the "rights of the people to own and drive automobiles shall not be infringed?" Right now, my biggest peeve is that someone like myself trying to do the right thing and get trained has so few options.

Given the void here, maybe enthusiasts should take the lead to implement reasonable requirements before the anti-gun crowd goes too far. Does anyone know if the LTCH in IN is under threat to be modified or eliminated?

First, non-pedestrian traffic did exist at the time of the Constitution. I'm pretty sure there were lots of horses, buggies, boats, and rafts. Even the concept of the railroad was in place by then (wagon rails were being used in Germany as early as 1550: Railroad Invention and History). If the right to transportation by something other than your own foot was deemed necessary to delineate, I'm sure our Founding Fathers would have included it.

My understanding is that the Bill of Rights was intended to outline the basic human rights every person has regardless of what your government tries to infringe. These were guys who had spent several long years on a battlefield fighting for the right to speak their minds, fighting for the right to attend whatever church they wanted to (or didn't want to), fighting for the right to basic self-defense. They made sure to state specifically what they had spent all those years and lives protecting.

Second (or is this third?), there are more than a few options to find training in Indiana. If you open yourself to getting training outside of Indiana, there are even more options. See my previous post on this issue specifically.

Finally, as far as I know, the Indiana LTCH is not specifically under threat at this time (although I admit I don't keep up on House and Senate Bills the way other members of this forum do). However, I am firmly in the pocket of the "there is no 'reasonable' restriction" crowd. Why should we as responsible gun-owning citizens suggest a "reasonable" restriction (or requirement) in an effort to quiet those people who are against private citizens owning firearms? I do firmly believe that if we as responsible gun-owning citizens give even a little bit in this regard that we will only give those against private gun ownership even more food for thought. If responsible gun owners think we need this set of restrictions because they don't trust other gun owners to be responsible, then how can people who are against private gun ownership trust ANY gun owner to be responsible? How will they know? Then instead of us drawing the line, the line is drawn even higher because clearly we don't even trust ourselves! Do you see where this is headed?? There is no such thing as a "reasonable" restriction!

I'm pretty much convinced that the folk who would benefit form a 1-2 day "training course" are mostly the same folk who would get training.

The folk who won't get training unless it's mandatory are mostly the same folk for whom the training would be "in one ear and out the other."

Thus, making it mandatory, unless you make it long and difficult enough that it's really just a gun restriction by another name, really gets you nothing.

Snipped a little, but yes! This exactly! People who would benefit from the training would seek the training anyway, and people who take the state-mandated training solely because it's required to get the carry license wouldn't get a thing out of it!

Training:

Good idea - yes!
Recommended - yes!
Requirement - NO!

Slippery slope which could be abused to deprive many (most, all) based on whatever whims some anti-gun politician decides that particular year.

In case I haven't made myself quite clear enough with all my rambling -- YES! This Exactly!

hang on kids. for this once, i completely agree with shay. carry on.

Personally, I'm stunned. I never thought it would happen.
(PS.. You know I love you both!)

 

[rhino]

I am motivated and I am finding it, slowly. I'm just surprised its not more readily available for something as serious as carrying a handgun. Its too bad you've become so jaded you don't care to share your experience anymore. Why bother reading the forum?

Perhaps I was a bit unclear. What I'm not in the mood for doing is trying to convince people they need competent instruction if they wish to progress at a reasonable rate. Aside from the fact that it's usually like slamming my head in the car door over and over, at this point some cynics will choose to interpret such proselytizing as self-serving commercial interest.

I'm also not in the mood to keep trying to help individuals who claim they want instruction, but cite the costs as the sole reason they "can't" do. In rare cases this may be true, but when the same people have multiple guns that they apprarently could afford, but then balk at the idea of spending $100 - $250 for a day of instruction that they claim to want (and probably need), I lose my will to help. People who complain about the cost of firearms training don't seem to mind the much higher cost (per hour) of music lessons, for instance.

Now, part of the problem here is your assertion that such instruction is not readily available. The problem is that such training is readily available from multiple sources. Now, I will grant you that it can be difficult knowing where to look for such information at first. I need to remember that just because I know all about these things that not everyone else does, so I have failed in that regard. The bottom line at this point is, though, that you and everyone else reading this now knows that firearms-related instructions is readily available in Indiana from multiple sources and vendors. We can now move on from there, and hopefully you will share what you now know with others when they seek something similar.

If you want my advice (assuming you don't want to do a class or tutorial with my organization), I think the best choice for someone new to handguns for defensive use would be Ken Campbell's 2-day Introduction to the Defensive Pistol conducted a couple of times per year in Boone County. It's an excellent class even for experienced shooters, and at $150 for both days it's a tremendous bargain. Ken is a fantastic instructor whose motives and integrity are above reproach. Contact him at KCampbell@co.boone.in.us and ask about his 2-day intro class and to put you on his email list for training announcements.

Not only is that a great start, it's also a good foundation for assessing what you want to do next. You may feel you have what you need and that is a valid opinion in many cases. You may find that your appetite for learning is whetted and you wish to study the topics in further depth. In the latter case, your options are many just considering what is available at Boone County alone.

Another great choice would be to do John Farnam's (DTI) two day handgun class in Rochester, Indiana in May. You can't get a better first exposure to how to be safer and how to use a handgun to help ensure your own safety than with the Farnams. There is a topic in the training forum with a list of 2009 DTI class dates in Indiana.

The only reasons I recommend Ken's two class first is because of the lower cost and proximity since you prefer the Indianapolis area (Boone County Sheriff's Dept. range is a stone's throw from the north side, just off of I65).

 

[esrice]

I think the best choice for someone new to handguns for defensive use would be Ken Campbell's 2-day Introduction to the Defensive Pistol conducted a couple of times per year in Boone County. It's an excellent class even for experienced shooters, and at $150 for both days it's a tremendous bargain. Ken is a fantastic instructor whose motives and integrity are above reproach. Contact him at KCampbell@co.boone.in.us and ask about his 2-day intro class and to put you on his email list for training announcements.

Yes. That.

 

[Glockster]

Well said Pami but IMHO, not very politically savvy. A void will eventually be filled by leadership, and if the enthusiast community simply stonewalls everything, the leadership filling the void will not be to your liking. It is an unfortunate fact of human nature that people follow leaders, not for their ideas, but their leadership skills. People want to be led even if it is right off the cliff. History is full of this truth.

 

[Glockster]

Perhaps I was a bit unclear. What I'm not in the mood for doing is trying to convince people they need competent instruction if they wish to progress at a reasonable rate. Aside from the fact that it's usually like slamming my head in the car door over and over, at this point some cynics will choose to interpret such proselytizing as self-serving commercial interest.

I'm also not in the mood to keep trying to help individuals who claim they want instruction, but cite the costs as the sole reason they "can't" do. In rare cases this may be true, but when the same people have multiple guns that they apprarently could afford, but then balk at the idea of spending $100 - $250 for a day of instruction that they claim to want (and probably need), I lose my will to help. People who complain about the cost of firearms training don't seem to mind the much higher cost (per hour) of music lessons, for instance.

Now, part of the problem here is your assertion that such instruction is not readily available. The problem is that such training is readily available from multiple sources. Now, I will grant you that it can be difficult knowing where to look for such information at first. I need to remember that just because I know all about these things that not everyone else does, so I have failed in that regard. The bottom line at this point is, though, that you and everyone else reading this now knows that firearms-related instructions is readily available in Indiana from multiple sources and vendors. We can now move on from there, and hopefully you will share what you now know with others when they seek something similar.

If you want my advice (assuming you don't want to do a class or tutorial with my organization), I think the best choice for someone new to handguns for defensive use would be Ken Campbell's 2-day Introduction to the Defensive Pistol conducted a couple of times per year in Boone County. It's an excellent class even for experienced shooters, and at $150 for both days it's a tremendous bargain. Ken is a fantastic instructor whose motives and integrity are above reproach. Contact him at KCampbell@co.boone.in.us and ask about his 2-day intro class and to put you on his email list for training announcements.

Not only is that a great start, it's also a good foundation for assessing what you want to do next. You may feel you have what you need and that is a valid opinion in many cases. You may find that your appetite for learning is whetted and you wish to study the topics in further depth. In the latter case, your options are many just considering what is available at Boone County alone.

Another great choice would be to do John Farnam's (DTI) two day handgun class in Rochester, Indiana in May. You can't get a better first exposure to how to be safer and how to use a handgun to help ensure your own safety than with the Farnams. There is a topic in the training forum with a list of 2009 DTI class dates in Indiana.

The only reasons I recommend Ken's two class first is because of the lower cost and proximity since you prefer the Indianapolis area (Boone County Sheriff's Dept. range is a stone's throw from the north side, just off of I65).

Thank you. Just for the record, no where have I objected to the cost of training. I have spoken to Jim Heath about his NRA basic pistol on 1/17 and am awaiting a return email from Sheriff Campbell. My whole point with this thread is that its taken so much effort to find it. I wonder how many of the 500 other LTHC applicants in the last 10 days have tried so hard?

 

[shooter521]

I wonder how many of the 500 other LTHC applicants in the last 10 days have tried so hard?

Not nearly enough, I can tell you that!

But, as has been said before... those who WANT training will seek it out (and it's not all that hard to find); those who do not want it, would not avail themselves of it even if it was advertised on every billboard in town.

 

[Hoosier8]

Glockster, I was the same age as you when I got my LTCH. I have never had any training other than an M16 in the Air Force years ago and shooting a 22 as a kid and in our high schools rifle club back when they were popular.

I never thought I needed training, but then again, I am an avid reader and whenever I decide to do something, I investigate it thoroughly. All the information you need is on the web. My skills are being honed through practice. I carry a 1911 daily. I hope I never need it because, after studying, I wouldn't want to be caught up in the possible legalities of using it.

Is there room for training? Absolutely. Anyone wanting it should be able to find it easily, probably easier than it is now. I may go to a training class someday just to pick up pointers but I am not for mandating anything related to our rights that pre-existed the constitution. I think that is a slippery slope and I will fight it.

What I am not clear on here is if you are worried about training for yourself or are you projecting that others should have training you feel they need? I am not trying to be a protagonist here, I just wonder because that, I feel, is part of the "reasonable restriction" crowd mentality, always for others on the basis of safety for all instead of trusting in personal responsitilty and freedom, which has it's own inherent set of dangers.

Good posts Pami and Rhino.

 

[Lars]

I agree completely. I even managed to get to my first 1 day basic defensive pistol class with PD Training in Newcastle (for $65 even....) before my LTCH arrived. I took NRA Basic Pistol (waste of $100 for my wife and I) a couple weeks later. And then took the PD Training class again with my wife.

She and I later paid an instructor from this board for a full day of private instruction.

And shortly after made it to the INGO training day last spring.

It's not that difficult to find good training opportunities. I do not support a legal requirement for training however. I do suggest everyone who is out looking for a second gun who's never been through proper firearms instruction reconsider that purchase and instead pay for some training.

Not nearly enough, I can tell you that!

But, as has been said before... those who WANT training will seek it out (and it's not all that hard to find); those who do not want it, would not avail themselves of it even if it was advertised on every billboard in town.

 

[Glockster]

Hoosier 8: It sounds like we approach things similarly. When I get interested in a new topic, I research it rigorously. I am becoming much more comfortable with self-training because there are so many resources on the net. I was a shotgun-only gun owner until one week ago and frankly, not active in the gun community. Going through the process of buying a gun (and seeing the current frenzy out there) along with the LTHC walk-through surprised me. I now envision every road-rage victim waving a pistol.

 

[ATM]

Well said Pami but IMHO, not very politically savvy. A void will eventually be filled by leadership, and if the enthusiast community simply stonewalls everything, the leadership filling the void will not be to your liking. It is an unfortunate fact of human nature that people follow leaders, not for their ideas, but their leadership skills. People want to be led even if it is right off the cliff. History is full of this truth.

This is still America. We the people must hold our elected leaders to the constraints of our national guiding documents. Constitution-be-damned charismatics' tenure will be short lived. Possibly in every sense of the term.

 

[Pami]

Hoosier 8: It sounds like we approach things similarly. When I get interested in a new topic, I research it rigorously. I am becoming much more comfortable with self-training because there are so many resources on the net. I was a shotgun-only gun owner until one week ago and frankly, not active in the gun community. Going through the process of buying a gun (and seeing the current frenzy out there) along with the LTHC walk-through surprised me. I now envision every road-rage victim waving a pistol.

I really want to encourage you to:
1) Get training with a good instructor [Ken Campbell is an excellent place to start, as suggested above].
2) Stop reading the news.
3) Get out and meet more INGO members. We are only a *fraction* of the gun-owning community and represent a pretty wide swath of the average Hoosier gun owner.

Not everyone who is a victim of road rage owns a pistol. Not everyone who owns a pistol will wave it in a road-rage incident. To require training of *everyone* because of a sensationalized few is scarier, in my opinion, than those sensationalized few.