Trump caves

[Kutnupe14]

Allow me to introduce Warren Harding and Jimmy Carter if you are looking for incompetent.

That's fair... but I can't help but think if Trump was reading this, he'd be about to say "...hold my beer, errr Diet Coke"

 

[KG1]

That's fair... but I can't help but think if Trump was reading this, he'd be about to say "...hold my beer, errr Diet Coke"

Might as well finish the sentence, shall we? ...... He'd be handing that beer, errr Diet Coke to his supporters whilst they are cheering him on.

 

[Trigger Time]

Well, if he did say that, I disagree. I disagree with any type of open border, but I still maintain that opposing a wall does not default to wanting open borders. As distasteful as it is to think, I'd prefer a militarized border over a stupid wall.

I've said it Before. MINES! Post signed well before they get to them. If some dumb mother****er wants to cross into that then let them try.

 

[edporch]

But what if I believe that building a wall won't do anything significant to fix the border?

There are several easier, less expensive, and more effective options to correct the problems in our immigration system.

No, I'm not convinced we need a physical barrier from coast to coast.

But, physical barriers do work as the FIRST layer in an overall secure border plan.
They do slow down the great majority of people to a more manageable level, which gives border patrol more time to respond.

Physical barriers combined with technology would work the best.
And by doing a much better job of forcing people to use legal ports of entry.

 

[edporch]

Who said they don't want to fix the border? What I'm hearing is that people don't want a stupid monument to Trump wall that is of dubious effectiveness.

Actions speak louder than words.
It's been over 30 years, and yet no SERIOUS effort has been made to secure the border.
You prove my point.
You're so pre-occupied with how much you hate Trump, that you would put the security of our country second.

And NO, I didn't vote for Trump (or Hillary).
But I can say if Hillary had been elected President, and proposed the same plan as Trump, i would support it too.
Even though I can't stand her.

 

[wtburnette]

No, I'm not convinced we need a physical barrier from coast to coast.

But, physical barriers do work as the FIRST layer in an overall secure border plan.
They do slow down the great majority of people to a more manageable level, which gives border patrol more time to respond.

Physical barriers combined with technology would work the best.
And by doing a much better job of forcing people to use legal ports of entry.

Yep, first step in the plan is to secure the border. After that, you work on addressing our immigration system, the welfare state and enacting stiffer penalties and broader enforcement for those who employ the illegals who still manage to get here. Just like in Information Security, there is no one control that will fix the problem. We have to have defense in depth. Multiple controls to address various parts of the problem.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Do you think that I'm a miracle worker? There are too many beneficiaries of the current system to expect any change to pass.

To be transparent, I am basically a supporter of an open border. I realize that isn't popular on INGO, but it is what I think is best.

But if you really want to cut down on immigration that violates the law, here's what I see as the easiest solution: Anyone who employs a worker who is not legally authorized to work in the US is to be fined the equivalent of 10 years of back taxes for that person--federal, state, Social Security, the whole thing. If the risk/reward calculation shifts, people's behavior will shift, too.

Building a wall is just a dumb solution.

But if the border is "open", then there would be no such thing as "immigration that violates the law". Hey, now that I think about it, maybe we should just get rid of all laws. The crime rate would drop to zero overnight! I mean, without laws, there is no crime. Brilliant!

 

[DoggyDaddy]

I'd like someone to tell me who wants open borders first.

Post #94.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Actions speak louder than words.
It's been over 30 years, and yet no SERIOUS effort has been made to secure the border.
You prove my point.
You're so pre-occupied with how much you hate Trump, that you would put the security of our country second.

And NO, I didn't vote for Trump (or Hillary).
But I can say if Hillary had been elected President, and proposed the same plan as Trump, i would support it too.
Even though I can't stand her.

I think Trump is well more of an immediate danger to our country than illegal immigrants (no purple).

 

[NKBJ]

I think Trump is well more of an immediate danger to our country than illegal immigrants (no purple).

In your views, how is the president a danger to the country?

 

[HubertGummer]

How dare Trump improve our economy, attempt to secure our borders, lower our taxes, eliminate the health insurance mandate, attempt to un-nuke N. Korea and in general **** off the left.


​You're right, Orange man is dangerous...

 

[Punkinhead]

The way we spend money - a wall just isn't that big of a deal. Probably not worth the cost, but the effectiveness is guaranteed higher than zero and I'm sure we've spent more money on stuff less important.

Bingo! Too many libtards and even people claiming to be conservative don't see the power in deficit spending on ineffective symbols. Even when the Republicans controlled both houses for two years they refused to see the wisdom of spending borrowed money on something that wouldn't slow immigration. We seem to have forgotten the lessons that Ronald Reagan taught us over 30 years ago - borrowing billions and spending it on a symbol WORKS! We all knew Star Wars wouldn't work and 35 years later we still don't have a working space based missile defense system, but he bankrupted the Soviet Union and pulled together the rubes to support our conservative causes. The Soviets were too dumb to see that the system wouldn't work just like the Mexicans are too dumb to use shovels or ladders to go under or over a wall. The important thing is the symbolism that a wall will represent. It's time to do away with "fiscal conservatism" and start spending money borrowed from China on symbols that will firm up our base. Why are so many of our fellow conservatives completely blind to the wisdom in the saying, "the Democrats deficit spent, so we should too."?

 

[KLB]

How dare Trump improve our economy, attempt to secure our borders, lower our taxes, eliminate the health insurance mandate, attempt to un-nuke N. Korea and in general **** off the left.


​You're right, Orange man is dangerous...

You give him a lot of credit for signing bills that congress passed, pontificating, and doing the same thing his predecessors tried and failed.

He does get credit for Gorsuch, to a lessor extent, in my mind, for Kavanaugh, removing some regulations, and not being Hillary Clinton.

 

[CHCRandy]

Jailing the idiots who hire them would work 1000x better.

Many would say that would be on the shoulder of the American consumers. Business owners just give them what they are willing to buy. If the American people were not looking for cheaper and faster, we wouldn't be in this place. I was one of the last roofing contractors to hire hispanics. When I started my business in 1995, we were all Americans. In 1996 when a hail storm hit, I had over a years worth of backload. I could literally keep my guys busy every day, for over a year...and customers would wait. About 2001-2002 it became evident to me that if I wanted to remain in the roofing industry, I would either have to adapt or starve. The American people were hiring Mexican crews because they could do in a day what it took me 3 days to do, and do it cheaper. We went from having 1 year backorders with hail storms, to a month or 2. Fast forward to today, and if a big hail storm hits, you better get your contracts in the first couple of weeks or the pickings get tough. All the work will be completed in 3 months. Many contractors today have never installed a roof themselves, they are pimps, they sell you the job...pay the Mexicans to do your job....without supervision, then they show up to collect a check. Quality is replaced with quantity.

If you eat out, eat fruit and veggies, eat meat, hire lawn care, have home repairs, build a house, stay in a motel, take a cruise or countless other services, you are contributing to the problem. If the American consumer would have not hired them, they wouldn't have stayed where you don't feed them. It's like a deer. To keep it on your property you have to have food, cover and water, take one of the 3 away and the deer will travel until it finds what it needs. I was one of the most outspoken people against this when it started 20+ years ago. I would call ICE daily on crews. Show up on jobs in Border Patrol hat and shirt...just to watch the guys jump and run. No one wanted to listen, so now we are all paying the price. The damage done can't be reversed. It is the normal now.

So people can blame the employers all they want, but many of us know the consumer is as much to blame or more than others. If you would not have hired them, they wouldn't have stayed. Many of us only hire legal immigrants.....but we cannot possibly manage who they hire. In other words if I verify the guy I hire is legal, speaks English, insured and a registered business....the people cannot expect me to oversee the registered companies business. That is not my problem. As long as the guy I am paying is legal, it is neither my responsibility or business to make sure his employees are legal. Now as far as plants like Tyson, who hires individuals and pay each individual.....I don't know how they do it, unless it is stolen identity.

 

[Punkinhead]

The anti-wallers would have you believe that stepping up enforcement of laws already on the books is a more effective strategy. Who comes up with ideas like that? What if they tried to extend that thinking to other issues like gun control? Leave employers alone and build the wall!

 

[printcraft]

I think Trump is well more of an immediate danger to our country than illegal immigrants (no purple).

 

[CBR1000rr]

I'm not certain he "caved". In fact, my opinion is that this was a tactical move.

This is how I see it:
It started with drawing the proverbial 'line in the sand' - Build the wall.
He baited them by saying he would own the shutdown.
This gave them an air of confidence to hold their position and allow the shutdown to happen.
I don't think they expected it to last as long as it did however.
Throughout the shutdown, at the risk of losing his base, he continually shifted his position culminating in him completely backing down and giving in to the democrats.
This made it appear that they won.
What really happened though?
He forced Nancy and Chuck to go full retard.
He made them choose between not only American citizens but DACA recipients too.
When they chose to stand their ground, they chose politics over people.
You may not see it but the are now millions of people who once stood with Nancy and Chuck are now questioning their loyalties.

The real question is; WHY?
I think it's a set up.
He gave them exactly what they wanted.
What happens over the next 3 weeks?
The SOTU should take place Tuesday but Nancy already said that likely won't happen.
What happens if Nancy and Chuck continue to refuse border wall funding?
Eventually, 3 weeks will pass and we will be facing another shutdown.
Who will be af fault this time?
Can Trump negotiate down any further?

We watched Trump give and give to the point he gave them exactly what they want. Now we are about to witness 3 weeks of more one sided negotiations. At the end of 3 weeks, if need be, he will declare a national emergency and let the Mil build the wall. It will immediately be challenged in the courts but he's already set the stage and the courts will quickly studder with Trump.

That brings me to part 2. I think something else happened as well. My guess is RBG will retire/ pass away over the next 3 wks. thus opening up another SCOTUS pick. Conservatives will have complete control of the SC and he will win the decision 7 - 2.

Obviously, this is all speculation but it stands to reason that something is going on behind the scenes the public isn't privy to. These behind the scene moves are where the magic happens. Guess we shall see Tuesday.

 

[CampingJosh]

But if the border is "open", then there would be no such thing as "immigration that violates the law". Hey, now that I think about it, maybe we should just get rid of all laws. The crime rate would drop to zero overnight! I mean, without laws, there is no crime. Brilliant!

Umm. I think that you missed my points.

I don't think that illegal immigration is much of a problem at all. This was a disclaimer so that everyone understands I'm not actually calling for the policy I described, just that I think there are several tactics to stop illegal immigration that would be cheaper and more effective than a wall.

But yes, lots of times the problem with crime is really that the law is flawed and should be repealed. See, for instance, alcohol prohibition.

 

[drillsgt]

I'm in favor of something pretty close to open borders, but it has to be paired with a significant cutback in our current socialism. Being physically in the US should guarantee you opportunity: nothing more and nothing less. If you can afford to stay here, then it's because you are adding to the economy and society, and I'm happy to have you.

I've spent a lot of time in Latin America, both Central and South. In many areas, opportunity simply doesn't exist. Something like subsistence farming is the only option. That sucks.

I'm in favor of people being rewarded more for what they do than for where they happen to have been born.

And it is quite disingenuous to pretend that the problems in Central America are 100% the fault of the people there are 0% the fault of US policy. I mean, that giant caravan of migrant refugees that so many here think is a national emergency are only refugees at all because the Obama administration--and in particular Secretary of State Clinton--played an essential role in the success of the military coup in Honduras. Without our foreign policy, they would have been happy to stay in Honduras. I believe that what our elected officials did in the name of the United States was evil, and so yeah, I think that we might probably should feel some responsibility for their current situation.

We send them almost 70 million in foreign aid (Honduras), that should be the end of our 'responsibility'.

 

[Kutnupe14]

In your views, how is the president a danger to the country?

Unsubstainable economic policies, unwillingness to confront traditional enemies, inability to take counsel from cabinet members, willingness to take cues from Fox talking heads, and the ease that he is willing to lie to the American people.