Try it!

[Survivalcookie]

No, if you want the government to educate your children, more power to you. I object to being forced to pay for it.


No, I don't. Nor do I believe it is a per child credit, but rather a one time deduction. It wouldn't come close to reimbursing the cost of a private school tuition.

It is a yearly deduction, based on the number of children you have. have you ever looked at the form...I am sure many evil home school families take the deduction...

From the form: Figure your deduction. If you made an unreimbursed education expenditure during 2011 your deduction is:
(1) $1,000; multiplied by
(2) The number of qualified dependent children for whom you made education expenditures.

http://www.doe.in.gov/sites/default/files/accreditation/private-school-deduction-instructions.pdf

 

[Leo]

So through all this discussion, in whatever form of education, the biggest factor in success in involved, supportive parents.

I spent about a year in a position requiring hiring college age students for retail positions. I mistakenly believed that students enrolled in further education would require less training. (Please note, that I am NOT saying all) You would be surprised how many cannot count change, how many could not do simple end of day reports. Many lacked the skills to assist customers who asked straight forward questions, or had social difficulties. I am not even bringing up work ethic. I am sharing this example to show that just because a person has made it through a public school education, at least enough to qualify for college, does not mean he has the basic skills to live life.

In this experience, I have no way to quantify the parental involvement, just observing the 20 something year old product.

 

[AlphaSig112]

I don't care if people want to homeschool but it bothers me that they advocate the destruction of public schools. My child's public school system is great. They do a great job of teaching history, math, writing, etc. Contrary to the beliefs of many homeschoolers, things like manners, politics, etc are generally picked up through parenting.

If you choose to homeschool and have the free time to do it then good for you. But from my perspective, most of the fears of public education that I hear from homeschoolers are unfounded.

You may all be interested in looking at the school system created in the wake of Katrina in New Orleans. They have created a charter school system to be better than the public schools and the children are thriving.

 

[Survivalcookie]

I don't care how you educate your children. Or IF you do so. But you have no right to demand that someone else pays for it.

I pay my property taxes...I don't demand anyone to do anything...that is the way it is in a community...I have never used an ambulance, yet I pay for it with my property taxes. The first public school in the US started in 1635, Public schools have been around along time.

quote=88GT I said not homeschooling was a CHOICE. The "I can't" is more often an "I won't" or "I don't want to." I also conceded the CHOICE not to enroll in government schools may come with more disadvantages than advantages.

You make women who have to work to support their families sound awful not all women have the luxury to stay home all day so they can home school a 5 year old like you do...I would say that would be easy.


quote=88GT I said it wasn't true. because it's not. There isn't a service offered by government schools that can't be found in the free market.
But can every family afford that service????

quote=88GT I never called you a liar. I would have to think you we're deliberately disseminating false information. I do not.

You said my statement was untrue..I would say that is calling me a liar...like I said in the other thread...you are at an age where you THINK you know everything...You have no idea what another person can handle or do...all people are different...You do not know if you could home school and work 12 hours a day, and be gone 2 or 3 days a week with your job with no help from a husband. You have no idea what it is like to have a kid with special needs...one who at 28 still is not potty trained and has to have a feeding tube...you have no idea

quote=88GT I said they were equally guilty of theft.

O b*** ***t!


quote=88GT When it comes to home education, you don't. I also said your experience was insufficient to reach any conclusions or substantiate any statements about trends.

My experience expands over decades...yours what 5 years.

quote=88GT 'm betting you don't. No reflection on you, but it's ludicrous to think that you have knowledge of the intimate goings-on in every area of the school.

it is ludicrous to think that you have intimate knowledge of what goes on in every home school family.
Like you I only know what I need to know to make sure my grandchildren get the best education, any way I can do it. And I know home school is not for our family.

quote=88GT I said homeschooling was a choice. Your daughter COULD homeschool. I also said the opportunity costs of doing so might preclude the choice. I didn't say she should either.

Yea my daughter could home school if she went on welfare. Someone has to support her children. Like I said all women don't have the luxury you do.

quote=88GT You said parents of special needs kids could't take care of them without the government's help. Since I know a lot of homeschooling families who do just that, I pointed out the error in your statement. Your friend's personal circumstances never factored in to my statement.

Well they should because you are factoring in the statement that you know alot of home school families with special needs....it is not a one size fits all would with special needs...they can run from just needing speech classes to learning how to sit up in a chair with out falling out.


quote=88GT It was a rhetorical question with the purpose of pointing out the fallacy of your government-is-the-only-answer approach. I'm guessing she wouldn't be able to afford an institution either.

It may have been, but most children with serve autism use to die or they would be dropped off at state run institutions....and most would died in those...
A child at the high end of spectrum...the skills learned at school can make sure a difference.


quote=88GT Because you can't bring yourself to admit that there is truth in what I'm saying, you have to deflect with the unrelated. Do you tell people who oppose Obamacare to find a new place to live? Do you agree with forcing others to pay for someone else's responsibilities?

Obama care is not based on where I choose to live. There is no truth in what you are saying...public schools has been around for ever...just like public roads and everything else your property taxes pay for...like I said that is your choice to home school. I can be honest enough to say I can't, I wont. because I would be taking from my grand kids education...As back as far as I can remember my family went to some form of public school, my kids went to public and an private and I preferred the public, now my grand kids are in public school, they are all excelling.

quote=88GT I said your personal circumstances were irrelevant to the points being made, that they did not constitute anything more an individual datum point. Your personal experience is relevant to the formation of your position, but it does not address the immorality of confiscatory taxes, inadequate results, indoctrination, usurpation of parental control, and so on and so forth. I had a great experience in my public school years. Graduated 14th in my class of 797 with a 4.11 GPA. And none of that matters one bit because my experiences are not evidence of a trend, one way or the other.

Yet your personal circumstances do...I don't follow trends, I do what is best for my family.

quote=88GT I never questioned your credibility. I have no reason to believe you can't be believed.


quote=88GT I said nothing of the sort.
Then pay for it yourself, out of your own funds, voluntarily, and without coercion. You have no right to force me to do the same.
I pay my property taxes, I am paying for it out of my funds.
And that changes the immorality of forcing me to pay for it how?

Like I said home school people get tax credits so some others are paying for home school. who do not use it.


quote=88GT Grade 13? Really? Is this the new way of saying "college level?" Or did the government schools figure out a way to get one more year of control?

Yes it means college level.

quote=88GT And I would say that they would be out of business if they couldn't take the "tuition" by force.

Maybe but you will never know for sure.

quote=88GT On the contrary. Government education, like all government institutions that operate sans competition, is the most bloated and inefficient use of tuition dollars. That it is the lowest ranking educational institution only makes it worse.

There is competition, they are called charter schools...keep up with the trend dear.

quote=88GT On that, we can agree. However, I don't like the state having a say in my child's education either.


quote=88GT The bottom line is that government schools provide no unique service, require non-users to pay for others' responsibilities, and are the most expensive educational option with dismally inadequate results. Hey, it really is the educational version of Obamacare. Is it any wonder I'm opposed to it?

That is your opinion...Do you have any idea how much it cost to run a private school. You have to pay all the same expenses....the only difference is the teachers make less and no unions to pay into.

 

[Survivalcookie]

So through all this discussion, in whatever form of education, the biggest factor in success in involved, supportive parents.

I spent about a year in a position requiring hiring college age students for retail positions. I mistakenly believed that students enrolled in further education would require less training. (Please note, that I am NOT saying all) You would be surprised how many cannot count change, how many could not do simple end of day reports. Many lacked the skills to assist customers who asked straight forward questions, or had social difficulties. I am not even bringing up work ethic. I am sharing this example to show that just because a person has made it through a public school education, at least enough to qualify for college, does not mean he has the basic skills to live life.

In this experience, I have no way to quantify the parental involvement, just observing the 20 something year old product.

The same can be said for all education...public , private, and home school...I use to hire a home school to help me with my grand kids when they were young...she was 13 or 14 and could not even write out a simple grocery list.

 

[AlphaSig112]

Having been raised in a unique situation of my own I prefer private schools to all else. I was never home schooled but having gone to public and private schools and having very close friends that were home schooled I can understand where the argument in favor of non-public schools comes from. I went to a public school until I was in the 6th grade where a change of circumstances created a necessity of change in my schooling. I went from the top of my class at public schools to the bottom at Catholic schools. I had a ton of work to do to catch up and found that I was actually enjoying school for the first time in a long time. I was challenged to work. I never had to try in public schools. I was successful because it would take weeks to learn something I found very simple. I continued private school until college where I went on to be fairly successful. I graduated from college with a 3.7 GPA. I attribute that success to being challenged through high school. I attribute that success to an involved family. My parents made tremendous sacrifices to send me to better schools and they had to pay for it out of their own pockets. As a final note. My wife (school teacher) would rather make less and be more involved with teaching children at a private school than make more and teach to the government test. She is not unique in this belief.

 

[rambone]

Her problem is she don't want to pay for public schools....I say move to where you don't have to.

Where is this place you speak of? Outside the USA obviously.

 

[jamil]

The same can be said for all education...public , private, and home school...I use to hire a home school to help me with my grand kids when they were young...she was 13 or 14 and could not even write out a simple grocery list.

You can find examples of great or lousy students in all education environments. I know a 13 year old public school student who wouldn't be able to write out a simple grocery list. If the critical elements are missing , you'll end up with a poorly educated and low functioning adult. Parental commitment and involvement, quality of teachers and curriculum, standards, etc., all contribute and any can be missing in any educational environment.

I'm not in favor of eliminating public funding for schools altogether. That would assure that kids with poor or lousy parents grow up to be poor and lousy adults. I don't mind a portion of my taxes funding education, but only if it has complete financial and academic accountability. That's not how the current system is.

Instead of what we have now, I think we should completely eliminate all public schools owned and operated by governments and abolish the US Department of Education. I would much prefer a model similar to the New Orleans model, except families pay tuition according to financial ability, and charter schools, local, or distance, compete for student enrollment. Of course home schooling would also be an option.

And, by the way, I do take the deduction. It's only a partial reimbursement for the portion of my property taxes that go to the public schools that I'm not using.

 

[Bill of Rights]

This is obviously (very obviously!) a heated topic.

I have to put my "mod" hat on now, though and make the following suggestion:
If you find yourself getting angry or upset at the points in the post you're reading or writing, take a step back. Get off INGO for a while, long enough to calm yourself down. Come back and write your reply, then save it to your own computer. Don't post it yet.
Come back tomorrow, re-read what you wrote in anger, and decide if you really think it needs posted, in light of the recommendation that posts be directed at the subject, not the person.

I don't want to have to go through and edit posts or do anything more than just this friendly "heads-up" (or "in-thread-warning", if I have to use that term.)

(Obligatory addition: )

Thanks, all!

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Survivalcookie]

You can find examples of great or lousy students in all education environments. I know a 13 year old public school student who wouldn't be able to write out a simple grocery list. If the critical elements are missing , you'll end up with a poorly educated and low functioning adult. Parental commitment and involvement, quality of teachers and curriculum, standards, etc., all contribute and any can be missing in any educational environment.

I'm not in favor of eliminating public funding for schools altogether. That would assure that kids with poor or lousy parents grow up to be poor and lousy adults. I don't mind a portion of my taxes funding education, but only if it has complete financial and academic accountability. That's not how the current system is.

Instead of what we have now, I think we should completely eliminate all public schools owned and operated by governments and abolish the US Department of Education. I would much prefer a model similar to the New Orleans model, except families pay tuition according to financial ability, and charter schools, local, or distance, compete for student enrollment. Of course home schooling would also be an option.

And, by the way, I do take the deduction. It's only a partial reimbursement for the portion of my property taxes that go to the public schools that I'm not using.

We are in a 4 star school district, and we as parents can see where our money goes by just going to the school administration office and asking for a copy of the budget...I think that is very good accountability...now I know IPS schools are horrible. They have vouchers that are means tested to go to charter schools...only people on welfare passes the means test, or working at minimum wage job.
My daughter and her 3 kids live with us. A Long with another grandchild. She could not pass the means test because our incomes would be combined.

I am sure you don't get back what you pay in property taxes, unless you have a lot of kids. But that is just the way it is...I hate paying for abortions but my tax dollars do it...I hate paying for people getting disability because they took to many drugs, I hate paying for food stamps, welfare and all the other free stuff that people get because they don't work.

 

[Survivalcookie]

Where is this place you speak of? Outside the USA obviously.

I am sure you walk out into the middle of the desert or in the mountains and live off the grid with out paying property taxes...other than that, I don't have a clue.
Just found a place Dewey Beach, Delaware. No property taxes since 1981, Stafford, Texas.

 

[giovani]

88gt how old are your homeschooled children?

 

[88GT]

So through all this discussion, in whatever form of education, the biggest factor in success in involved, supportive parents.

I'm not in favor of eliminating public funding for schools altogether. That would assure that kids with poor or lousy parents grow up to be poor and lousy adults.

These are contradictory statements. Either the parents are the determining factor or they are not.

To which I say, we already have kids with lousy parents growing up to be lousy adults. What exactly would be the big change again?

Then again, if governments schools are such the saving grace, why aren't the kids with the worst parents doing as well as those with better parents?

I don't mind a portion of my taxes funding education, but only if it has complete financial and academic accountability. That's not how the current system is.

I get that people are fine with paying or others' responsibilities. But it's called charity and it's not your business to tell me when and how to be charitable. I don't mind helping others unable to help themselves either. But I sure as hell don't want to be forced to fund an entity whose very existence is anathema to my idea of freedom, that indoctrinates my children with a set of beliefs I do not want them to have, and usurps my parental authority by its very existence. You might as well be asking me to fund a gulag they want to put me in.

If you want accountability, you necessarily have to remove the government from the equation. Money talks. And when the provider doesn't have to worry about the money being given to a competitor, it has ZERO motivation to provide a decent product and every motivation to do whatever the hell it wants regardless of the preferences of the "users." Until the money is paid on a user-choice basis, and the non-users aren't forced to pay into it to keep it afloat, you will always have a bloated government inefficiency that occasionally provide the service it is supposed to provide.

 

[giovani]

This utopia you seek , it never has nor never will exist, Grasshopper.

 

[2A_Tom]

5 children none have spent 1 day in public school. Chritian school.

 

[88GT]

This utopia you seek , it never has nor never will exist, Grasshopper.

Yes, it has.

But I'll compromise. Remove the compulsory attendance requirements.

 

[giovani]

Compulsory attendance, to school?

When we took our kids out school after kindergarten our local school system treated us as if we fell off the face of the earth.

We had no trouble what so ever.

 

[88GT]

Compulsory attendance, to school?

When we took our kids out school after kindergarten our local school system treated us as if we fell off the face of the earth.

We had no trouble what so ever.

Do you know what the compulsory attendance law in Indiana is? What it means?

 

[RockofStrength]

The related code here in Indiana, for the convenience of the discussion:

IC 20-33-2

 

[steveh_131]

I will never cease to be fascinated by this.

We are so well indoctrinated that it feels completely natural to us to hand our children off to government-employed strangers to teach and to raise them for a huge percentage of their waking hours.

Even lurkers on a 'conservative' website will vigorously defend this system.

Government schooling is anything but natural. This indoctrination system has only been around for maybe 200 years. Believe it or not, children have been educated for all of human history, even before the government stepped in to take over for us.

Proof of our indoctrination: In this discussion, who comes off as the extremist? The folks who want to force people to send their kids off to indoctrination camps? Nah. The folks who pass off their kids to be raised by bureaucrats so they can keep up that second car payment? Nah. The extremist is the one who thinks parents ought to teach and raise their own children, or privately pay someone to do it if they are unwilling.