Two to the chest and one to the head..blah, blah, blah

[snojet]

A long read, but worth it.

This is an old article that I found but I still believe most if not all the information is still valid, and interesting.

Clink---> http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

I think the above article takes the "what if" out of the topic of where, how, and so-forth on shooting a BG.

If not, then please provide some documents to show otherwise. I would be interested to read.

I sincerely hope that we don't have to take someones life.
Blessings...

 

[Airborne33]

Would have been nice if it would have specifically discussed different calibers and what they were best suited for. It does mention 9mm and .45acp but doesn't really say if either one of them is particularly effective in taking a target down. I will stick with my 1911, and I will continue to think center mass. To those of you who can get headshots, well.. maybe you can teach me how to shoot sometime?

 

[E5RANGER375]

i REALY like the Hornady TAP FPD 223 ammo. (im reading off the box here) 55gr, 3240 fps

this stuff is hott but stops too!!! I love it. It does a NICE job at breaking up and so i would feel safe using it in my house, I have done my own test to verify its claims. i bought a BUNCH of it when it first came out and back then it was a black metalic nickle coating so it fed better. i dont know if they still use it or not, but i have ennough of the old to last me a lifetime and pass on, lol. its stricly for personal defense for my use for the average bad guy. for super bad guys, i have different choices

 

[Tactical Dave]

To those of you who can get headshots, well.. maybe you can teach me how to shoot sometime?

Take a paper target that has the outline of a human. Cut out the head and lay it over the upper center mass and post on what you notice .

 

[Joe Williams]

Take a paper target that has the outline of a human. Cut out the head and lay it over the upper center mass and post on what you notice .

No. Take a 3" circle, paste it on center mass. 3" is a rather generous representation of the target area you have to hit for a head shot to be "guaranteed" effective. Rig your target so it's bobbing and weaving, then post on what you notice.

We can save having a friend shoot at you while you engage that target for later practice sessions, if you are pleased with the results from your initial test.

 

[Tactical Dave]

No. Take a 3" circle, paste it on center mass. 3" is a rather generous representation of the target area you have to hit for a head shot to be effective. Rig your target so it's bobbing and weaving, then post on what you notice.

We can save having a friend shoot at you while you engage that target for later practice sessions, if you are pleased with the results from your initial test.

My point is that a head is about as large if not as large or larger then what people consider center mass.......

 

[Joe Williams]

My point is that a head is about as large if not as large or larger then what people consider center mass.......

And mine is that just hitting the head will not necessarily provide the instant shut down that is the entire point of trying for a head shot. Outside a very specific, and very small, target area, your shot may very well be ineffective. It may even bounce or ricochet off the skull. And that very specific target area is rarely static.

 

[Tactical Dave]

And mine is that just hitting the head will not necessarily provide the instant shut down that is the entire point of trying for a head shot. Outside a very specific, and very small, target area, your shot may very well be ineffective. It may even bounce or ricochet off the skull. And that very specific target area is rarely static.

There has been people that have been shot in the head with rounds around the size of .50BMG that did not go threw and stoped in the brain and they lived...

Yeah hitting the heart is a sure thing but with all the people who got shot and it missed theri heart by a hair is a lot greater then those who lived through getting shot in the head.

 

[E5RANGER375]

well if the guy turns sideways all you pelvic shooters are screwed

if the bad guy is moving then your average shooter (including most cops) wont hit anything no matter what they are shooting at anyways, and thats a provable fact

 

[sporter]

I have always heard 2 in the pink and 1 in the.......OOPS...Wrong thread.

 

[PatriotPride]

Best spot I'm told is the triangle from the nose to the mouth area if facing you. I'm sure others have heard of this, how true is this That is just what they teach.

You are only slightly off. What you are referring to is the "Cranial Vault" shot. Trace a triangle like so: Point A is the extreme right-side of your left eyebrow. Point B is the extreme left-side of your right eyebrow. Point C is the bottom of your sinus cavity. This is the only shot which will immediately slacken each and every muscle in the human body. This also happens to be one of the most difficult, if not THE most difficult shot snipers must train for. I hope that cleared it up a bit for you

 

[Airborne33]

I think this thread is just going to start getting personal lol. I only worry because I feel like I am an average shot. I get the feeling a lot of people aren't prepared to actually defend themselves because they don't take in consideration stress and other potential factors that might inhibit their ability to shoot like they do at a range.

Take in consideration that you will be scared or really nervous, you might be injured, you might only have a few seconds to draw and fire at the target to stop him from hurting you or someone else, you might not be able to see very well, you might have a misfire, your ears will ring, you probably wont really be able to hear, you will have tunnel vision, yada yada.

Center mass is a better target. It doesn't bob and weave like the head does. It is more forgiving, I can miss a few inches from center and still hit something vital, and it's obviously easier for follow up shots. I really think the whole, "double tap chest, then head" idea is for people who are either experts, or who aren't really preparing themselves for reality. I can miss center mass target, and still hit the body in a vital. If I miss the head, the bullet can deflect off the skull or just completely miss. Sure one good headshot might drop someone, but I would think few situations give the time necessary to actually "Aim" at the target. Those said situations probably aren't as important to drill for, as the situation in which you don't have time to aim. Training to hit center mass can help you in most situations, training to shoot at the head can help you in fewer.

Your target wont stand still, they wont let you shoot at them. They will move, they will fight back. You will only have a second or two to catch them off gaurd, if that at all. They will probably be only a few feet away from you. You can say this will make them a bigger and easier target, but when consider movement, they will also be a faster target. In a real situation, you probably wont think as much as you will react.

In the military they teach aim center mass. It's proven, it works, and it stops people. Sure the head can be a better target for some scenarios, but for self defense, practice center mass.

Still not convinced? Find a range where you can do draw and fire at. First target, unload everything center mass. Give yourself three or four seconds. Second target, shoot two center mass and one head. Give yourself the same amount of time. Look at the results, count hits, not misses and go from there. Remember the target is not moving or firing back at you. You can't always be prepared for everything, but atleast prepare to have only a few seconds.

In a range if you are looking to have fun, go ahead and practice headshots. For fun. But when it comes down to actually defending yourself. Be smart, most of us should go for the big easy target and putting as much lead in said target as possible.

Now I am not trying to make enemies here. Some of you will have the skills I simply don't have and can't yet understand. Just have to make sure people are taking a few minutes to actually seriously consider what an emergency might actually be like, and stop considering the video game aspect of things.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

No. Take a 3" circle, paste it on center mass. 3" is a rather generous representation of the target area you have to hit for a head shot to be "guaranteed" effective. Rig your target so it's bobbing and weaving, then post on what you notice.

We can save having a friend shoot at you while you engage that target for later practice sessions, if you are pleased with the results from your initial test.

Joe take your hand and make a fist, then place it on your face palm towards you in the area described below. Your fist is about the same size as your heart usually. On me the two areas are pretty equal in size, with maybe a slightly larger head shot area. You pretty much have to hit the heart to guarantee a pretty quick stop. Yes the head will still be a more difficult shot because of movement.

That being said I'm shooting at whatever I can see/hit if I'm forced to. Be it center chest, pelvis, head or pinky toe. And not stopping until the threat is stopped, I'm stopped or I'm out of ammo. Although center chest would be my first preferred aiming point.

You are only slightly off. What you are referring to is the "Cranial Vault" shot. Trace a triangle like so: Point A is the extreme right-side of your left eyebrow. Point B is the extreme left-side of your right eyebrow. Point C is the bottom of your sinus cavity. This is the only shot which will immediately slacken each and every muscle in the human body. This also happens to be one of the most difficult, if not THE most difficult shot snipers must train for. I hope that cleared it up a bit for you

 

[finity]

To each his own.
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On the range I can go from kydex to 2 rounds on target at 7 yards in 1.51 seconds. Consistently. I can do a single shot in 1.37 seconds at the same distance with 1/2 of the target blocked by a hostage (what is by default a "head shot" for size of target available to hit) and never hit the hostage. Consistently. For my skill level, it doesn't take a lot to get there. It does take some practice. On the other hand my friend can do it nearly twice as fast and it takes a considerable amount of time to get to that level.

Doing 3 target drills (8" plates, 7-12 yards away with 2~ yards between them) takes me 3.25-3.5 seconds to go from kydex to 6 shots fired and scored. I honestly don't practice the 3 targets. Usually it's two. It's also only under the stress of a shot timer and not a life or death situation either.

As far as sight picture is concerned, at 7 yards I really don't have a sight picture. All I'm seeing is the front sight. Shorter than 7 yards, I don't even see the sights and my first shot is going to fired slightly before my arms are fully extended.

Muscle memory, gotta love it.

Learning to crawl before we walk... Incorporating all that into getting off the X and movement is yet another step down the road. You have to learn to crawl before you can walk and walk before you can jog... Getting off the X is crucial should you encounter anyone with anywhere near your skill level.

Getting off the X becomes less of a concern when you are confronted with your average street thug(s)... again, you can't do B and C before you can do A. Most gun owners can't do A and they are trying to do B C D E and F.

I fail to see how your skills as stated above will translate to shooting at a 3-4" circle that is moving around. The mechanics of the human body is such that the extremities move way more & faster than the center portions. It's really hard to move your torso as quickly as your hand or head. The torso is a more easily obtainable shot. The head isn't. Especially with no sights.

I really don't understand you ideas on GOTX. It seems to me that the FIRST thing you should ever learn to do is GOTX. Even before you pick up your first weapon. I'd say that GOTX is pretty much an instictual reaction - "run!". When you learn how to fight back then you actually train your instincts out to not just flee but to engage the other guy. If you can do both (as in GOTX while returning fire) that is the best situation.

My goal in SD is not hurting the other person but ensuring that I don't get hurt myself. Moving out of the other person's line of attack is the best way of avoiding that. If you can bring your own weapon into play while moving then that's all the better.

Joe take your hand and make a fist, then place it on your face palm towards you in the area described below. Your fist is about the same size as your heart usually. On me the two areas are pretty equal in size, with maybe a slightly larger head shot area. You pretty much have to hit the heart to guarantee a pretty quick stop. Yes the head will still be a more difficult shot because of movement.

First off, your not trying to just hit the heart. A lung, liver or heart shot will be almost just as effective in causing the person to bleed out. They will all stop the BG in about the same amount of time if all other conditions are the same.

That said, the area covered by the "lung, liver, heart, major arteries & veins" area is WAY bigger than your fist.

That being said I'm shooting at whatever I can see/hit if I'm forced to. Be it center chest, pelvis, head or pinky toe. And not stopping until the threat is stopped, I'm stopped or I'm out of ammo. Although center chest would be my first preferred aiming point.

It makes the most sense. A large, slow-moving area or a small, fast moving area...I know which I'll pick. And as was stated, when the SHTF you probably won't have time to 'pick' anyway.

 

[POC]

That said, the area covered by the "lung, liver, heart, major arteries & veins" area is WAY bigger than your fist.

I know nearly '0' about pistol shooting. I do know anatomy. finity hit the nail dead on the head. There are many things in the upper torso that carry a lot of blood, bleeding out in a few seconds.
Another thing about the pelvis shot. Even if, as someone said "most handgun rounds won't shatter the pelvis", there are large veins and arteries in that area also, not to mention the kidneys which filter your blood, same as the liver. Even if you miss low, the inside of the thighs has the femoral artery.
Just more food for thought.

 

[Amishman44]

You know, I read a lot of these articles and I still think a lot of people are missing the point when it comes to using a gun to protect one's self and/or family. A gun is a LAST RESORT when it comes to personal protection. It is a back up to all of the others, eyes (see what's going on around you / situational awareness - recognize and react), ears (hear what's happening and properly interpret threat level), and good instincts (developed from life experience and proper training).

Very rarely is an attacker (BG) going to be running at you with a knife raised overhead, screaming, from 50-40-30' away...with a few seconds of available time to see, interpret, and react with a weapon of your own. Most likely, the BG will work his/her way to 'up-close-n-personal' before they initiate their attack. Their goal, to surprise, intimidate, and overpower in one swift action...to get their way quickly. When they're that close, hand-to-hand self-defense is your best option...if you've had training and know how. And how many people know that now-a-days?

Situational Awareness is still the best (#1) defense AGAINST having to draw your weapon!!! (I hear some people talk and they act like they WANT to get into a gun fight...and they couldn't be more stupid...a gun fight is always the LAST RESORT, even though it may end up there very quickly!)

The best thing you can do, if you see a situation developing, is to a) get the heck out of there, if possible, or b) prepare to defend yourself. Let the BG know that you a) see him and b) are aware of his/her perceived intentions. Reposition yourself, if possible, and face your attacker. With the element of surprise, along with the after effects of intimidation / overpowering now gone, you may have just thwarted the attack right there. At the minimum, you've just leveled the playing field, making the outcome 50-50 rather than 100% in the BG's favor.

Just one example of situational awarenesss from my personal experience: Back in '92, I was with a few work friends at the Three Rivers Festival in FW walking around downtown when a 'cat fight' broke out about 5' from me and I recognized the situation developing. I grabbed the girls with us, turned them away from the fight and said, 'Go' and we immediately headed away from the fight. We were able to worm our way through the fast gathering crowd and was barely able to break out of it's tightening clutches as we got the heck out of there. It took police 5+ minute to break through about 30'+ of gathered crowd to get to the actual fight. We stopped and looked back and noticed that we would have been a very small number of the very few white faces in that crowd. Who knows where those situations could end up. In a situation where a knife could have been used very effectively, and no one would see who did it...a gun would not have mattered...but we were not in it.

Situational Awareness...is still more important that the gun itself...keeping the eyes moving, keeping the ears open...and paying attention to what's going on around you are the keys to survival.

Remember, you don't want to get into a gun fight.

Oh, and BTW...the .357 Magnum will do considerable damage to an abdominal cavity / pelvis area.

 

[Airborne33]

I think some people actually DO want to get in a gun fight. Scary eh? I want to be prepared to defend myself, but I would hate to be in a situation where I hate to. I agree the best way to protect yourself is to be aware of your enviroment and avoid problems. Don't go through dark alleyways, Do lock your doors, Do walk your female friends to their apartment or door step, Do keep your handgun close to you and don't put yourself in a situation where you have to use it.

If you want to practice practical skills make sure to practice drawing (With an unloaded pistol) in normal street clothes. Wear your favorite jacket, try to put yourself in a typical situation and draw from there. Do it, until it's almost natural. Make sure you always have the correct grip and that you can find the front site immediately. +1 if you can find a range that lets you do draw and fire drills.

The worst thing you can do is tell yourself that you are 100% ready for anything and that you know exactly how it will go down. The fact is, most of us don't have a clue what it will be like when it does come time, because (a) it'll probably take you by surprise and (b) it wont be at a range with a paper target. Get your mind right and remember this is REAL LIFE, not some video game.

Plan for the worst and hope for the best.

 

[junglerogue]

Mercop had it right! Academy teaches shooters to neutralize the threat, NOT to try to cause trauma. Even if the perp is wearing a vest, the impact of the round has the capability of breaking a rib/s and to cause severe bruising. Very few people can naturally fight through the shock of being shot. FYI, when placed in a stress inducing scenario accuracy drops to about 30%. So train with that in mind, i.e. use airsoft or simunition/paintball and have someone shooting back at you as you try to punch paper.

 

[Amishman44]

I think some people actually DO want to get in a gun fight. Scary eh? I want to be prepared to defend myself, but I would hate to be in a situation where I hate to. I agree the best way to protect yourself is to be aware of your enviroment and avoid problems. Don't go through dark alleyways, Do lock your doors, Do walk your female friends to their apartment or door step, Do keep your handgun close to you and don't put yourself in a situation where you have to use it.

If you want to practice practical skills make sure to practice drawing (With an unloaded pistol) in normal street clothes. Wear your favorite jacket, try to put yourself in a typical situation and draw from there. Do it, until it's almost natural. Make sure you always have the correct grip and that you can find the front site immediately. +1 if you can find a range that lets you do draw and fire drills.


The worst thing you can do is tell yourself that you are 100% ready for anything and that you know exactly how it will go down. The fact is, most of us don't have a clue what it will be like when it does come time, because (a) it'll probably take you by surprise and (b) it wont be at a range with a paper target. Get your mind right and remember this is REAL LIFE, not some video game.

Plan for the worst and hope for the best.

Airborne33...you got it right! I sometimes don't wear a certain jacket or coat, or I change the method in which I'm carrying, simply because I know I'm not very efficient in accessing my weapon in an emergency simply due to the type of clothes I am wearing. I love the 3-slot holsters...in the winter, I carry cross-draw when out-n-about because wearing a gun under a winter coat with a seatbelt holding everything in place is not condusive to a 'fast draw' if accosted in my car at a stoplight. Wearing a cross-draw holster, with my coat/vest partially unzipped in the car, is much faster and places the business end of the gun in better proximity to the side window for quicker action, if needed.

Also...real life does not have a 'reset/redo' button...it just keeps moving forward whether you're ready and able to move forward with it or not!