URGENT-A friend needs our help.

[RedThunder]

Joe, of Bell Precision In Greensburg needs our help and support. He is being squeezed by the Decatur County Zoning Commission and it may affect his FFL and ability to do the work he does.

This could have started with bitter people with an ax to grind, over land or any other dispute but its been taken to this level where Joe will need to stand before officials and explain and defend what he does, on his own land.

Bell Precision does superb work on firearms, I've had work done by Joe myself as have hundreds of others. He is also a good, safe instructor who's patience and lessons may some day save the lives of me and my family. This is just some of the work that Bell Precision has accomplished.

More important, Joe is a good man and does not warrant or deserve this. He needs our support, not in kinds words, emails, face book likes, but in bodies at the courthouse, support for a good person building his life and business.

Regardless of your feelings, how busy you may be, if you even know Joe or not, remember one thing, IT CAN JUST AS EASILY HAPPEN TO ANY ONE OF YOU. And should that come to pass, Joe and I would be there in your support.

July 3rd at 6:30 pm
Decatur County Board of Zoning
150 Courthouse Square Suite 117
Greensburg, IN 47240
For more details, visit Bell Precision

We need boots on the ground...a lot of them.

 

[femurphy77]

He does fine work and is facing zoning issues. Based on that probably won't garner enough interest to visit. Little more detail in the original post might be helpful.

 

[RedThunder]

Read the second paragraph. I really can not provide any further detail. You want more detail, contact him and ask him. The decision for people to show up will be up to them.

 

[bwframe]

No offense, but I wonder why Joe isn't on here himself asking his fellow INGOers, especially those he has instructed, for support?

 

[RedThunder]

No offense, but I wonder why Joe isn't on here himself asking his fellow INGOers, especially those he has instructed, for support?

So, your not going to be there...why not just say so or nothing at all.
No offense.

 

[bwframe]

...why not just say so or nothing at all...

I didn't say I wouldn't support Mr. Bell. Just participating on this discussion forum. I asked a question. Do you have the answer?

 

[femurphy77]

It's in the second paragraph, read the third post.

 

[42769vette]

I wouldnt know Joe if he hit me in the mouth, and I wont be able to be there, but if there is a number I can call to give my support I would be more than happy to do it. Ive been "squeezed" for my business's 2nd amendment ties, and Ill do what I can via phone to give support.

 

[Dirtebiker]

He does fine work and is facing zoning issues. Based on that probably won't garner enough interest to visit. Little more detail in the original post might be helpful.

I agree with Murphy!

How about, tell us who Joe is, what he does, and exactly what kind of zoning issue he is facing that any of us could possibly help with.
If he is operating against existing zoning laws, what difference does it make if we show up?

And don't get mad, I'm just asking questions.

 

[bwframe]

No word from Mr. Bell?
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...n_rifle_class_long_range_shooting_school.html

 

[Dirtebiker]

I guess it's not important enough to RedThunder to respond!?

 

[RedThunder]

Well, I had no idea that small county politics could get so mean. I went to this "meeting". Not really a court. Zoning commission meeting with Joe and several other supporters tonight. A very nice guy Joe built long guns for came in from Florida, but the room/guests did not get a chance to comment tonight.

because someone asked, and Im not taking shots at anyone, but Joe did not post because he has not had the warmest responses from some here (see post re: his precision training services, it started with questioning his qualifications to teach, to a member getting pissed because Joe would not give him a free day of training which I thought was arrogant in the extreme, again, my opinion. If I paint cars I'm not going to paint yours for free just to prove to you I do quality work. And it's just my opinion but Joe is uncomfortable asking for help. Hope that helps.

Understand that I am doing my best to be as accurate as possible and tell you what I can and as I understand it.

A somewhat influential land owner has issues, with the Bell family. He got a member of the zoning board to go after Joe for violating his zoning restrictions (what he can do on a very specific part of his land) gun smithing, building guns, and a small range, was what was initially listed on his Conditional zoning application ( I may have that name wrong). But it says exactly what you can do your land, if your land is not zoned for it. You tell this board they ya or nay it and you move along...i figured this out because thats exactly what happened with a business owner prior to Joes case, kid is a gunsmith, even had a legal issue against him in the last five years and was in and out in 5 minutes...with board approval for another 5 years. i guess no one was interested in his property.

The lawyers brought up possible state and federal legal,issues this board "may" be violating Joes "gun" rights (suggested by the attorney) - I really don't know, may be fluff.

Issue is Joe has a 1000 yard range on an adjacent piece of property of his "zoned area" to shoot on, test loads, rifles and allow his clients to learn to shoot his guns (the precision instruction mentioned earlier) you buy. I think dropping several K on a beautiful rifle and including this kind of personal training is just exceptional business practice IMO. But I digress...again

Well this adjacent range area is under dispute for not falling under the initial request parameters for the zoning. Shop, small range, office..I think. They are saying its also a safety issue. BTW Joes family own about 300 acres I'm guessing...as the kids say, word on the street was that someone was very interested in buying a chunk of this land for a golf course and was simply told no by the Bells. Again, I was not there, but several locals mentioned it after the meeting.

To ensure a fair account and I by no stretch understand all of this, nor am i in a position to judge what another man should be doing with his business....I think that Joe could have gone to this board in the past year(s) and told them, "I've grown" and need to offer these services to my clients including using this adjacent property of ours as a range for training/testing. HINDSIGHT...it may have been hard for anyone to anticipate this. That may have solved it or it may have never grown to the issue it is. They may have told him to pound sand. Again, I really don't know the workings or laws governing what you can/can not do on your own property.

Joe had a couple attorneys there who questioned the practices and procedures of this zoning board, there were some irregularities, mostly in their notification and process to Joe that he was to appear. I totally believe had he not had council, their intention was to "shut him down" as one of the board members said...before the proceedings started.

The attitude of this zoning board really surprised me. They were negative and unprofessional from the start. One in-particular was downright venomous and actually showed up on Joes fathers front door a few weeks ago screaming about shutting him down and where is he". This gentleman was in the front row and would not even face any of Joes or his councils responses. He said there were "complaints", But had no number, no written documentation. Said the police were involved, but there was no record of this, police record everything. When asked to provide this proof or names he said he would not. No one else on the board even tried to curb this guys rage.

So, Joe has some options to resolve this IF this board is reasonable and a few options if they are not I would imagine. They are to set another date to review this and resolve the issue. If Joe does not have the permanent or conditional zoning permission or approval it will affect his FFL and his ability to do business as in he will not be able to.

1-2 of the 6 members of this zoning board was mostly polite, their attorney was very nice and professional. ,it was this one member...wow. My opinion, but he and the wealthy land owner were quite chummy afterward and he made the rounds with the other board members. This was a hostile environment from the beginning, they would have cooked Joe if not for legal council and about 12 of us who attended.

Again, I think the lawyers and us present gave them a bit of a check, one person was even video taping the board during this process. Had it been the "finale" people attending would have had the opportunity to comment on anything really, their actions, in favor or against Joe, his methods, safety instruction, quality of instruction.

Members of this forum who are far better qualified than i could have spoken of indiana gun laws, zoning regulations and really provided their experience to this board. Someone who's had similar issues and this is how we solved them or that happened and there is a legal precedence. People there can have an impact on the proceedings but this deck is slightly stacked and I am convinced, just my opinion that things are not remotely fair or that this board is objective and I think part of their role is to be fair and objective.

I will post again when I know the next date. If you can make it, I know it would be greatly appreciated.

One last thing, not knowing these locals, next to me and my wife was this nice gentlemen, we introduced ourselves, talked a bit about Harley's & road trips....it just comes up. And then the meeting began. He was quiet throughout. At the end as the board dismissed everyone, he looked at me and my wife and said "it's a damn shame that he's a minister and a god damed liar". Shocked I said great and we walked away. Minutes later I discovered we were sitting next to "wealthy landowner". And he was speaking of Joes father, a minister and as far as I know an incredibly good man.

Again, should you have any questions, I will do my best to respond or get answers. I am not the mouth piece of Bell Precision, just a customer, who wants to help him out. He's turned into a friend, perhaps one of those rare life long friends, he too is a fly fishing freak for our rivers smallies, but as even friends go, I would not hesitate to tell him he's full of it IF the need ever arose.

 

[KG1]

Seems to me that the best people to show up in support of Mr. Bell would be previous customers that have personal knowledge of his business practices and professional training methods.

I do think it's a shame that it seems like Mr. Bell might be getting a dose of local politics but again I don't see how flooding the situation with a bunch of people showing up without any personal investment would be helpful in what looks like a local zoning issue instigated by a disgruntled local "wealthy land owner" who could not acquire the land outright to suit his purpose.

IMO there's more to this issue than being 2A related

 

[92ThoStro]

What exactly is the zoning issue? I am assuming it is perfectly legal to shoot on his own property. Is the zoning issue for extending his business, and installing a range for commercial use without permission? While zoning in many ways is ridiculous and for the most part you should be able to do what you want on your county property, it sounds like they were pre-existing. I wish him the best of luck, hopefully he can keep the range.

I didn't even know he could advertise for his business on INGO without becoming an INGO advertiser like the rest. I remember that one guy got his thread closed for his custom knife and leather work photos, but it got reopened with warnings to be careful. ETA: This guy is also selling guns, and says if you buy one, you get free training. He is a gunsmith, instructor, gun shop owner ( so I imagine he has an FFL? ). Maybe I just need to read the rules again though. I agree he didn't get a warm welcome, but if you post as a business then you are bound to get asked about qualifications from other business owners and customers. It sounded like he participated in shooting events himself, but I didn't see anything like the qualifications other advertisers on here have. Although if he shoots and teaches well, maybe he just doesn't care, or have the time to take instructor classes.

 

[KG1]

What exactly is the zoning issue? I am assuming it is perfectly legal to shoot on his own property. Is the zoning issue for extending his business, and installing a range for commercial use without permission? While zoning in many ways is ridiculous and for the most part you should be able to do what you want on your county property, it sounds like they were pre-existing. I wish him the best of luck, hopefully he can keep the range.

I didn't even know he could advertise for his business on INGO without becoming an INGO advertiser like the rest. I remember that one guy got his thread closed for his custom knife and leather work photos, but it got reopened with warnings to be careful. Maybe I just need to read the rules again though. I agree he didn't get a warm welcome, but if you post as a business then you are bound to get asked about qualifications from other business owners and customers. It sounded like he participated in shooting events himself, but I didn't see anything like the qualifications other advertisers on here have. Although if he shoots and teaches well, maybe he just doesn't care, or have the time to take instructor classes.

If i'm remembering corectly I think there is an advertising exception for training related businesses. I could be mistaken though.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

Zoning laws are always a slippery slope. Each local government has it's own rules and as all things at the local level, it's pretty common for some with more influence to get a ruling in their favor, sometimes at the expense of others and oftentimes with ulterior motives.

But I don't think anyone really believes that people should have total freedom to do whatever they want to do on their own land. If so, then I'll bet that belief would quickly dissipate if you have neighbor who decides to start his own salvage yard, or manure composting operation, or outdoor heavy metal music venue.

 

[RedThunder]

Seems to me that the best people to show up in support of Mr. Bell would be previous customers that have personal knowledge of his business practices and professional training methods.

I do think it's a shame that it seems like Mr. Bell might be getting a dose of local politics but again I don't see how flooding the situation with a bunch of people showing up without any personal investment would be helpful in what looks like a local zoning issue instigated by a disgruntled local "wealthy land owner" who could not acquire the land outright to suit his purpose.

IMO there's more to this issue than being 2A related

You could be correct on who the best people would be to attend. As I mentioned, I've never seen anything like this. (I knew I should have been a Community Organizer). However, I also think anyone with experience in zoning issues and gun law may have an impact on the boards decision during the final comments period.

You also mention more going on...this mean little irate man on the board has a history of acting this way. Another example,is if you want a pig farm in the county, he approves all of them. Even if it will contaminate someone's water. There was another local there who is going up against this member over that.

 

[RedThunder]

Zoning laws are always a slippery slope. Each local government has it's own rules and as all things at the local level, it's pretty common for some with more influence to get a ruling in their favor, sometimes at the expense of others and oftentimes with ulterior motives.

But I don't think anyone really believes that people should have total freedom to do whatever they want to do on their own land. If so, then I'll bet that belief would quickly dissipate if you have neighbor who decides to start his own salvage yard, or manure composting operation, or outdoor heavy metal music venue.

Good points and I get it. And I agree safety should be a concern as well when your shooting 1000+ yards. But they have not even seen the range. As I understand it, the initial approval was to do the business, shop and small range on "one section" of this 300+ acre property and he's doing additional "business" in another section that was not discussed/approved. (If he were dishonest, i believe he could have told them is for personal/family use and been fine - Joe nor his family do not fall into the dishonest catagory). It may be as simple as that or an excuse to go after him - he can and should address it easily. When its initiated by another person with a financial interest in the land in question, and a board member makes it a personal crusade to "shut him down" and they are biased from the start...that's unacceptable.

And yes, I am going to send a letter to the county commissioner about how unprofessional that board member was. I also thought a zoning board should have the interest of the land owner and the people they serve at the forefront of their process. Honestly a couple of them may have, but they were silent during the session.

Again to all, I am no expert in this, I'm from Nevada where there are days of land to shoot on. BTW, when we went back to the farm, with a few minutes of instruction from Joe, my wife did a couple 3" groups with my new TRP at about 12 yards. She's never shot a .45. I have a sneaky feeling Im going to see mine on her night stand instead of that 380...and I'm really OK with that!

 

[KG1]

You could be correct on who the best people would be to attend. As I mentioned, I've never seen anything like this. (I knew I should have been a Community Organizer). However, I also think anyone with experience in zoning issues and gun law may have an impact on the boards decision during the final comments period.

You also mention more going on...this mean little irate man on the board has a history of acting this way. Another example,is if you want a pig farm in the county, he approves all of them. Even if it will contaminate someone's water. There was another local there who is going up against this member over that.

Yeah, Local small town politics can be a dirty business. Don't get me wrong, I think you are doing a good thing by taking a stand and supporting someone that you have personal ties with and know the value that his services provide. It's gonna be up to people such as yourself to convince the zoning board of that. You are the kind of person that I was referring to in my other post.

If I were acquainted with Mr. Bell on a personal level and had first hand knowledge of the situation I would do the same.

 

[bwframe]

...Im not taking shots at anyone, but Joe did not post because he has not had the warmest responses from some here (see post re: his precision training services, it started with questioning his qualifications to teach, to a member getting pissed because Joe would not give him a free day of training which I thought was arrogant in the extreme....

I wish Mr. Bell success with this problem. Please take this as constructive criticism;

I wonder if Mr. Bell shouldn't employ a PR person? Having difficulty dealing with a few questions about qualifications (granted some were arrogant,) from a LOCAL forum with 30,000ish potential customers. Might that point to similar reasons why he cannot get along with his neighbors?