USMC Ditching Iron Sights

[mrjarrell]

The venerable iron sights on the M-16 are going away in the USMC, in favour of the red dot. They will keep training using an attachable mini iron sight (for when the red dot goes dead), but it's days are numbered. They're also going in favour of a two point sling and they'll be training in meters, rather than yards, on the range.

Marines ditch iron sights, consider new marksmanship training tables

 

[OakRiver]

I apologize if I misread you but reading the article they aren't ditching the iron sights, they are transitioning to flip up iron sights as a back up to their optics. When I read "ditching" I thought that was a bold strategy Cotton because if the optic fails then they are SOL.

 

[Mgderf]

The venerable iron sights on the M-16 are going away in the USMC, in favour of the red dot. They will keep training using an attachable mini iron sight (for when the red dot goes dead), but it's days are numbered. They're also going in favour of a two point sling and they'll be training in meters, rather than yards, on the range.

Marines ditch iron sights, consider new marksmanship training tables

TERRIBLE idea.
BTW- Marines have been training in meters for decades.
My boot camp range was set up in meters in 1977.

 

[Destro]

TERRIBLE idea.
BTW- Marines have been training in meters for decades.
My boot camp range was set up in meters in 1977.

Why is it terrible?

 

[bigbore]

I thought the US military in general used meters. Though when I was in the Army it was yards in the 90s.

 

[Alamo]

So they're not really ditching iron sights, they're phasing out the carry handle and going to flat top railed rifles with red dots and flip-up iron sights. Misleading title for the article.

 

[raptrbreth]

Some people I talk to are still amazed that I can hit 10/10 from 500 yards shooting at a torso target with iron sights. My opinion it is the only way to learn proper marksmanship techniques that can be applied to other type sights. The first time I shot a red dot on an Ar-15 platform I couldn't understand how anyone could miss.

 

[Mgderf]

Why is it terrible?

Because they need to learn the most basic and fundamental techniques first.

The same reason I think everyone should be required to pass a driving test driving a manual steering vehicle.
If you've never gotten accustomed to the technology, it will NOT come as second nature.
If they train on Red Dots, the day will come that some poor soul will lose their life because he/she was not proficient with the hardware supplied to them.

I know they said they will still train with back-up iron sights.
I find that backwards.
They need to learn to be proficient with iron sights, THEN learn a Red Dot as a supplement, not the other way around.

Too much dependence on technology for me.

 

[mikefraz]

Most of the proponents of iron sights over optics are also the same people that yell at those rotten rascals to get off their lawn.

Technology advances. Iron sights are now a secondary sighting system.

And to the post above, that's like telling my kids they have to use dial up internet before they use high speed to learn the fundamentals of Internet searching. Learning how to shoot correctly can be done on a red dot, or a high magnification, or iron sights.

 

[billybob44]

Most of the proponents of iron sights over optics are also the same people that

^^^Not too sure about that??

I do know, for ME, in Ninth Grade Math, I had to know how to do the equation with a PENCIL, before I could use a calculator...

But, now a days, some think that it is good to " Dumb Down " the students and depend on Hi Teck???...Bill.

 

[Lee11b]

the US military kills in meters and fills up in gallons

 

[17 squirrel]

The United States money is the metric system and fills up in gallons

FIFY

 

[Destro]

Because they need to learn the most basic and fundamental techniques first.

The same reason I think everyone should be required to pass a driving test driving a manual steering vehicle.
If you've never gotten accustomed to the technology, it will NOT come as second nature.
If they train on Red Dots, the day will come that some poor soul will lose their life because he/she was not proficient with the hardware supplied to them.

I know they said they will still train with back-up iron sights.
I find that backwards.
They need to learn to be proficient with iron sights, THEN learn a Red Dot as a supplement, not the other way around.

Too much dependence on technology for me.

I didn't see anywhere that standards, methods, or doctrine are changing. They are simply switching to an alternative iron sight.

 

[Mgderf]

Most of the proponents of iron sights over optics are also the same people that yell at those rotten rascals to get off their lawn.

Technology advances. Iron sights are now a secondary sighting system.

And to the post above, that's like telling my kids they have to use dial up internet before they use high speed to learn the fundamentals of Internet searching. Learning how to shoot correctly can be done on a red dot, or a high magnification, or iron sights.

Technology advances. You are correct.
That said, let's look at another example.
If you found yourself in the wilderness and you needed to build a fire, but your Bic lighter, or even your Zippo just won't work.
If you don't have the knowledge and skill to be able to rub two sticks together, well...

Technology is fantastic, as long as it works.
It's when technology STOPS working that I'm concerned about.

 

[halfmileharry]

Technology advances. You are correct.
That said, let's look at another example.
If you found yourself in the wilderness and you needed to build a fire, but your Bic lighter, or even your Zippo just won't work.
If you don't have the knowledge and skill to be able to rub two sticks together, well...

Technology is fantastic, as long as it works.
It's when technology STOPS working that I'm concerned about.

You nailed it. It not only applies to this but WHEN technology dies. It will happen. Those without basic skills will perish. My thoughts on this are strong when it comes to the "Dryer Lint" crowd.

 

[SwingW/theWing]

I agree that you need to learn the iron sights first. I didn't believe that Marines are using the acog to qualify. With that said...I put a scope on my AR for the first time and shooting 300-500 felt like I was cheating.

 

[actaeon277]

Most of the proponents of iron sights over optics are also the same people that yell at those rotten rascals to get off their lawn.

Technology advances. Iron sights are now a secondary sighting system.

And to the post above, that's like telling my kids they have to use dial up internet before they use high speed to learn the fundamentals of Internet searching. Learning how to shoot correctly can be done on a red dot, or a high magnification, or iron sights.

No, it's not the same.
Every once in a while, the peacetime military comes up with "new" and "improved" ways of doing things. And they work great, till they don't. You still need the fundamentals.
The Navy is going back to teach celestial navigation.
Army has had problems with over reliance on GPS.
Electronics can, and will, fail. Usually when it's needed the most.

 

[Mgderf]

...Electronics can, and will, fail. Usually when it's needed the most.

Murphy is alive and well, and practicing his trade...

 

[Roland of Gilead]

I read " Marine Corps getting new rifles".

I think Army and Navy getting rid of rifles that broke, used up and just don't want anymore.

 

[actaeon277]

Murphy is alive and well, and practicing his trade...

1. If the enemy is in range, so are you.
2. Incoming fire has the right of way.
3. Don't look conspicuous, it draws fire.
4. There is always a way, and it usually doesn't work.
5. The problem with the easy way out is that it has already been mined.
6. Try to look unimportant, they may be low on ammo.
7. Professionals are predictable, it's the amateurs that are dangerous.
8. The enemy invariably attacks on two occasions:
9. when you're ready for them.
10. when you're not ready for them.
11. Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at.
12. If you can't remember, then the claymore IS pointed at you.
13. The enemy diversion you have been ignoring will be the main attack.
14. A "sucking chest wound" is nature's way of telling you to slow down.
15. If your attack is going well, then it's an ambush.
16. Never draw fire, it irritates everyone around you.
17. Anything you do can get you shot, including nothing.
18. If you build yourself a bunker that's tough for the enemy to get into quickly, then you won't be able to get out of it quickly either.
19. Never share a foxhole with anyone braver than yourself.
20. If you're short of everything but the enemy, you're in a combat zone.
21. When you've secured the area, don't forget to tell the enemy.
22. Never forget that your weapon is made by the lowest bidder.
23. Friendly fire isn't.
24. If the sergeant can see you, so can the enemy.
25. Never stand when you can sit, never sit when you can lie down, never stay awake when you can sleep.
26. The most dangerous thing in the world is a second lieutenant with a map and a compass.
27. There is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole.
28. A grenade with a seven second fuse will always burn down in four seconds.
29. Remember, a retreating enemy is probably just falling back and regrouping.
30. If at first you don't succeed call in an air-strike.
31. Exceptions prove the rule, and destroy the battle plan.
32. Everything always works in your HQ, everything always fails in the colonel's HQ.
33. The enemy never watches until you make a mistake.
34. One enemy soldier is never enough, but two is entirely too many.
35. A clean (and dry) set of BDU's is a magnet for mud and rain.
36. Whenever you have plenty of ammo, you never miss. Whenever you are low on ammo, you can't hit the broad side of a barn.
37. The more a weapon costs, the farther you will have to send it away to be repaired.
38. Field experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.
39. Interchangeable parts aren't.
40. No matter which way you have to march, its always uphill.
41. If enough data is collected, a board of inquiry can prove ANYTHING.
42. For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism. (in boot camp)
43. The one item you need is always in short supply.
44. The worse the weather, the more you are required to be out in it.
45. The complexity of a weapon is inversely proportional to the IQ of the weapon's operator.
46. Airstrikes always overshoot the target, artillery always falls short.
47. When reviewing the radio frequencies that you just wrote down, the most important ones are always illegible.
48. Those who hesitate under fire usually do not end up KIA or WIA.
49. The tough part about being an officer is that the troops don't know what they want, but they know for certain what they DON'T want.
50. To steal information from a person is called plagiarism. To steal information from the enemy is called gathering intelligence.
51. The weapon that usually jams when you need it the most is the M60.
52. The perfect officer for the job will transfer in the day after that billet is filled by someone else.
53. When you have sufficient supplies & ammo, the enemy takes 2 weeks to attack. When you are low on supplies & ammo the enemy decides to attack that night.
54. The newest and least experienced soldier will usually win the Congressional Medal Of Honor.
55. A Purple Heart just goes to prove that were you smart enough to think of a plan, stupid enough to try it, and lucky enough to survive.
56. Murphy was a grunt